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2-25-2013: Dudebro Tears
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
Or, she's a competent character who may or may not be somewhat flat...

O-kay, I've got to stand up and admit to a dudebro moment. Upon first reading this, my first thought was, "What the hell does her bra size have to do anything?"

:deep, shameful breath:
"Hello, my name is bitflipper, and I am a dudebro..."
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Miss Magenta



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LadySunami wrote:
I'm all for more Xanthe character development! It would be fun to see the feminist brigade hanging out doing non anti-patriarchy activities every once in a while. Maybe a club picnic or move night or something, that can then end dramatically when the "feminist signal" is blasted into the sky! Feminists, assemble!!! (I've got superheroes on the brain. Must be watching too much Linkara...)


Dude, I would seriously pay cold hard cash for this. I would seriously drop everything, get several jobs, raise millions of dollars, and fucking PAY Tat directly for all of this to happen. I don't think you understand.

I just kind of hope it doesn't have to come to me getting several jobs or physically pay him, and just by mentioning HOW MUCH I LOVE HER AND WANT TO SEE MORE PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT FOR HER AS ACHARACTER will be enough to motivate him to EVENTUALLY make all of my dreams come true.

bitflipper wrote:
Upon first reading this, my first thought was, "What the hell does her bra size have to do anything?"


OK, in your defense flat is more often used IRL in reference to bra size than ... you know, character development I guess. So, yes, it would be natural that it would be the first thing you think of. It's ok. Maybe a year or more ago I would have thought the same thing.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Alright then, she's a female Marty Stu


Or, she's a competent character who may or may not be somewhat flat but if she were male you wouldn't have this much of a problem with her so just stop because I do not have time for your internalized misogyny.

Rothide wrote:
I want a flaw... the character is one dimensional, but everyone else is okay with it because she's fighting for what you guys believe in.


OK, I just gotta say. For the record. I love Xanthe. Clearly, I mean, I have her as an icon and everything. I agree with the messages she's trying to send and I admire her. But I will not disagree with the statement that she isn't exactly a fully-faceted character! I have mentioned it SO MANY TIMES IT'S FUCKING RIDICULOUS. EVERY TIME SOMEONE'S MENTIONED HER LACK OF CHARACTER, I'VE MENTIONED HOW I AGREE. You cannot say that everyone else is okay with it because you are FAR from the only one who is complaining. If you just look around and pay attention you would notice that plenty of people agree.

I want to see some flaws too, I want to see her show a more personal side, going on about things she likes that aren't directly about justice, revolution or feminism. Nobody wants to see any of that more than me, don't even play. I don't have time for that.



http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm#Part4

I put in everything I know about glossy, and now I will admit, she's borderline. And yes, give me a picnic, something. She can even have a big damn speech about the evils of pornography, but let me have something like this showing her everyday life away from the fight.
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Last edited by Rothide on Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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Black Kitty



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joandark wrote:
Nah, man, like her arms are longer now, the facial features are a little more rigid and less baby-ish. All her proportions seem to lean more toward the adult now. I don't know, maybe it's the fact that her hair is styled differently, or her change in attire, or the fact that she now seems to be wearing prescription glasses instead of sunglasses, that's throwing me off. Either way, she seems more mature now.


Oh, fo sho. Definitely. But Slick's done that kind of visual transformation as the tone of his strips varies as well. It's one of the things I like about Sinfest - the style is fluid, but still recognizable. Every line helps convey the purpose of the strip. Smile
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
Rothide wrote:

Do people see Luke and Han solo profiting from taking storm troopers armor as a character flaw, they are also profiting from someone's misfortune, so again, no.

That is a sensible wartime practice, but then again, they're soldiers, so that's a drop in their already morally questionable bucket.

Do you wish more people agreed with you? Is that what this is all about? Because if that's your point here, that means every post you've made so far is little more than you expressing how upset you are that nobody agrees with you... which is pointless and really, really silly.


Okay she has a flaw I'm completely wrong again, thanks for letting me know.
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KDX



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it really funny that ==>most<==, please not I did not use the word "all," of the people who like Xanthe can't really "defend" her behavior. They're typical response to any criticism of her character and the associated arc has been ad hominem attacks, and accusations of misogyny.

Xanthe is nothing more than an irrational (note I did not say "illogical"), vengeful, uncompromising hate monger who represents "strong women" about as well as the truly misogynistic stereotyping of "barefoot and pregnant."

Why? Because truly strong people don't feel the need to hurt and frustrate others to feel complete. And truly strong women, don't have to attack men to feel strong. If Xanthe was defending herself from someone else's, direct, active behavior to her person, fine. However, once she crossed the line into simply attacking/harassing guys just for being guys, she showed herself for what she is.

A sad, angry, little coward with a huge inferiority complex. How's THAT for a character flaw.

Also, thank you Tat for one more lovely middle finger to legitimate arguments. Right back at you, but not for much longer.
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDX wrote:
I find it really funny that ==>most<==, please not I did not use the word "all," of the people who like Xanthe can't really "defend" her behavior. They're typical response to any criticism of her character and the associated arc has been ad hominem attacks, and accusations of misogyny.

Xanthe is nothing more than an irrational (note I did not say "illogical"), vengeful, uncompromising hate monger who represents "strong women" about as well as the truly misogynistic stereotyping of "barefoot and pregnant."

Why? Because truly strong people don't feel the need to hurt and frustrate others to feel complete. And truly strong women, don't have to attack men to feel strong. If Xanthe was defending herself from someone else's, direct, active behavior to her person, fine. However, once she crossed the line into simply attacking/harassing guys just for being guys, she showed herself for what she is.

A sad, angry, little coward with a huge inferiority complex. How's THAT for a character flaw.

Also, thank you Tat for one more lovely middle finger to legitimate arguments. Right back at you, but not for much longer.


Sir. I salute you, here's your complementary flame suit/ bulletproof vest combo. Prepare for return fire.
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Black Kitty



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDX wrote:
Why? Because truly strong people don't feel the need to hurt and frustrate others to feel complete. And truly strong women, don't have to attack men to feel strong. If Xanthe was defending herself from someone else's, direct, active behavior to her person, fine. However, once she crossed the line into simply attacking/harassing guys just for being guys, she showed herself for what she is.


Does challenging their beliefs and moda opperandi constitute an attack? Holding a mirror up to their own ridiculousness? Please, where exactly do you see the harassment here? And I'll make the argument that she is defending herself from the expectations of the world around her by trying to subvert them, one person at a time.
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Smooshie



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDX wrote:
Xanthe is nothing more than an irrational (note I did not say "illogical"), vengeful, uncompromising hate monger who represents "strong women" about as well as the truly misogynistic stereotyping of "barefoot and pregnant."

What do you mean by "'strong women'"?

Quote:
Why? Because truly strong people don't feel the need to hurt and frustrate others to feel complete. And truly strong women, don't have to attack men to feel strong. If Xanthe was defending herself from someone else's, direct, active behavior to her person, fine. However, once she crossed the line into simply attacking/harassing guys just for being guys, she showed herself for what she is.

A social activist?
I mean, how do you know she's gaining anything but fuel for her trike through these things? Whether or not you agree with her methods, her goal is noble enough.

Quote:

A sad, angry, little coward with a huge inferiority complex. How's THAT for a character flaw.

I'd be very interested in seeing your evidence for these things. I would like to see strips, not anger.
Quote:

Also, thank you Tat for one more lovely middle finger to legitimate arguments. Right back at you, but not for much longer.



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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDX wrote:
Xanthe is nothing more than an irrational (note I did not say "illogical")

Apple Dictionary wrote:
irrational |iˈraSHənl|
adjective
1 not logical or reasonable.

rational |ˈraSHənl, ˈraSHnəl|
adjective
1 based on or in accordance with reason or logic


Dictionary.com wrote:
ir∑ra∑tion∑al
[ih-rash-uh-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1. without the faculty of reason; deprived of reason.
2. without or deprived of normal mental clarity or sound judgment.
3. not in accordance with reason; utterly illogical


Sorry, man, you need to look shit up. And no, this isn't an ad hominem attack because I'm not countering your point. I'm merely making you look stupid.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't have to make him look stupid Dogen. Every post he's ever posted on this forum does that.
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vector010



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loved the callback in this strip. Gave me a really good laugh. Smile

Smooshie wrote:
Her trike run's on someone's tears. Profiting directly from someone's negative emotions is questionable at best, in my opinion (compared to, say, a charity fundraiser where money is donated based on how long the Westboro Baptist Church protests).
Is that not enough for you?


Profiting from other's negative emotions might be questionable in some cases, but I don't think it is in this case. The "dudebro" tears Slick is shedding will be there whether Xanthe took them or not. The alternative to her taking them to fuel her trike is to simply let them waste on the ground. I dunno, I just see it as utilizing a readily available resource.

On the topic of Xanthe's character development, yeah it would be great to see the character fleshed out more. I think it would actually get the message her character is supposed to be getting across even better if she was fleshed out more because it would make it much easier to relate to her. I mean, yeah, you'll have people who really like her now because of what she speaks for, but if she becomes someone that people can really relate to as a person then those that don't necessarily see things the way she views them would be more likely to listen to and agree with the statement she is making. That would make her much more of an effective method of getting the point across than she is now. At least, that's what I think about it anyway.
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Smooshie



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vector010 wrote:

Profiting from other's negative emotions might be questionable in some cases, but I don't think it is in this case. The "dudebro" tears Slick is shedding will be there whether Xanthe took them or not. The alternative to her taking them to fuel her trike is to simply let them waste on the ground. I dunno, I just see it as utilizing a readily available resource.

Obviously, we have a differing opinion. A similar argument could be made for Soylent Green, you know: they're going to die either way, so the alternative to taking them as fuel is to simply let them waste away.
Perhaps that's a bit extreme. That's what it sounds like to me, at any rate. It's highly possible that my analogy (or the ouevre of my posts) is wrong or imprecise.
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Miss Magenta



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDX wrote:
They're typical response to any criticism of her character and the associated arc has been ad hominem attacks, and accusations of misogyny.


I'm against the usage of hollow terms that have been deeply rooted in sexism that are usually defined in such ways that makes it clear that if the character were male you would not give a fuck, which is problematic as hell. If you are to criticize her character, you don't just say she's a mary sue. Because again, the term is hollow and definition so inconsistent you realize it can be twisted by anyone just to demonize a character that happens to be female just because they happen to be competent or powerful. You don't say that. You say that the author is not exactly well-adjusted to writing her in a realistic or sympathizing way or you say that the character is written in a way that makes her come across as one-dimensional. Which is arguably true! But don't use sexist literary terms to make your arguments against the portrayal of a fictional character sound intelligent.

KDX wrote:
Xanthe is nothing more than an irrational (note I did not say "illogical"), vengeful, uncompromising hate monger


I don't know. Seems more to me that she's too rational. She's even-tempered throughout it all, and in her line of work she must not let anyone get to her. She can't afford to be irrational, or get upset. She can't afford to cry or scream. She can't afford to be too expressive. She doesn't worry about emotions, she doesn't let them effect how she behaves. She doesn't have time to repeat herself over and over for every man saying the same thing, trying to justify his problematic behavior. She doesn't have time to waste when there are more important things she can and should be doing. She'll tell you that what you're doing is wrong, give you somewhat of an idea why, and leave. And because of this she comes off cold, distant.

Vengeful? Maybe. But so far the only signs of vengefulness have been in response to the fact D-man exists.

Uncompromising? You don't know that. No one has ever attempted to compromise with her before. How would one even go about doing such a thing? Oh, I won't explain to you that your behavior is problematic if you actually act like you feel women are human beings worthy of respect like any other man? Don't make me laugh.

Hate mongering? Man, you can't even fucking back that up.

KDX wrote:
Why? Because truly strong people don't feel the need to hurt and frustrate others to feel complete. And truly strong women, don't have to attack men to feel strong. If Xanthe was defending herself from someone else's, direct, active behavior to her person, fine. However, once she crossed the line into simply attacking/harassing guys just for being guys, she showed herself for what she is.


Show me one instance where she is going out of her way to hurt ANYONE. Male OR female. Oh, wait. You can't. She's harvesting a dudebro's tears as fuel for her trike because it seriously runs on the tears of dudebros. It's insensitive, but she's not doing it with the intent of hurting anyone. She openly disagrees with and criticizes Slick, not because she wants to hurt him. But because she wants him to become better than he is. She wants him to learn that sometimes the things he says and do are problematic and he needs to stop. She's not harvesting his tears because she wants to hurt him.

The only man she literally has intent of attacking and harming in any kind of way is D-man, who. Well. Let's face it. Is a jerk, and is a jerk on purpose who is hell-bent (punintentional) on the suffering and oppression of an entire sex just because he likes it that way. And even then, we know she wants to thwart his efforts in everything he does but we don't really know if she actually wants to harm him.

KDX wrote:
A sad, angry, little coward with a huge inferiority complex. How's THAT for a character flaw.


I could agree with sad and angry, based on her calligraphy strip, but everything else you're just grabbing at thin air, trying to claim that she is something that there are no indications that she is.

But I hope that you realized that you just described Slick.

Of course I think that it would be interesting for Tat to show that Slick and Xanthe are more alike than either of them realize. But I don't think that is likely any time soon. So, whatever. No dice there.

vector010 wrote:
On the topic of Xanthe's character development, yeah it would be great to see the character fleshed out more. I think it would actually get the message her character is supposed to be getting across even better if she was fleshed out more because it would make it much easier to relate to her. I mean, yeah, you'll have people who really like her now because of what she speaks for, but if she becomes someone that people can really relate to as a person then those that don't necessarily see things the way she views them would be more likely to listen to and agree with the statement she is making. That would make her much more of an effective method of getting the point across than she is now. At least, that's what I think about it anyway.


Thank you, I agree whole-heartedly. There is so much he can do with her, she is a goldmine of untapped potential just waiting to burst at the seams! He can do amazing things with her, I know he can. And I love her as is, but I want to see him really tap into her potential. Really give us a reason to sympathize with her cause outside of general oppression of females. Show us her personal life, what personally drove her to fight the good fight. What woke her up to the patriarchy? How did she react to it at first? What happened to her between her first appearance and her second appearance? Does she still enjoy dolling people up in make-up? What sort of shows does she enjoy? What kind of artists or genres does she enjoy listening to? Favorite animals? Does she have any kind of pets? Is Nana her biological relative, or not? What sort of past does she share with everyone in the sisterhood? Has she ever liked anyone? In a romantic sense? Has she ever been in a relationship? What sort of things keep her going when she's sad? What sort of things make her sad? What sort of hobbies does she partake in her free-time? There are so many questions. And so many potential answers. And I want to see Tat tap into ALL of them.

So badly.
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lol



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
I just don't like Mary Sue characters, which Xanthe is... she's the authors pet, always right, never wrong. She's superman without the kryptonite, the only thing that ever happened to her was her bike got stolen, and even that just lead to an upgrade for her. I want a flaw... the character is one dimensional, but everyone else is okay with it because she's fighting for what you guys believe in. She's propaganda.

You just made an assumption that isn't true. Several of us openly admit that Xanthe is boring, mostly because she is suppose to represent an idea. We just aren't so sensitive that we want to demonize her at every turn.

This might throw you for a loop since I usually support Xanthe in forum discussions, but......Slick is my favorite character in Sinfest.
KDX wrote:
I find it really funny that ==>most<==, please not I did not use the word "all," of the people who like Xanthe can't really "defend" her behavior.

Xanthe is nothing more than an irrational (note I did not say "illogical"), vengeful, uncompromising hate monger who represents "strong women" about as well as the truly misogynistic stereotyping of "barefoot and pregnant."

Why? Because truly strong people don't feel the need to hurt and frustrate others to feel complete. And truly strong women, don't have to attack men to feel strong. If Xanthe was defending herself from someone else's, direct, active behavior to her person, fine. However, once she crossed the line into simply attacking/harassing guys just for being guys, she showed herself for what she is.

Every absurd attempt you make at demonizing her has failed because you literally make stuff up about her.

When has she harassed a guy just for being a guy?

When you start supporting your argument with more than sensitive, reactionary lies, you'll get a different response from everyone.


Last edited by lol on Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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