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2013/2/27 Brooding Male Hero
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StateOfBedlam



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shadow Master wrote:
...you do realize those are TV shows?
As in, they're not real?
The characters in them are fictional?

And I was talking strictly about the exaggerated male character archetype in this strip. It's a blatant hyperbole for the sake of humor. The last panel should make that pretty evident.

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Dude who missed the point post ^

Dogen wrote:
... not to mention that he apparently doesn't know what satire is? Satire is mocking the vices or abuses of a person or people to shame them, not to make fun of something that doesn't exist. It would be odd to mock society for something society doesn't do... unless I'm misunderstanding his definition.

There is a profound failure to communicate going on here. By "stereotype that does not actually exist", Shadow seems to have meant "people matching this exaggerated masculine ideal do not exist", not "these notions and expectations of masculinity are not actually present in society". Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the exaggerated idea is a common satirical method.

Wiki wrote:
A common feature of satire is strong irony or sarcasmó"in satire, irony is militant"[2]óbut parody, burlesque, exaggeration,[3] juxtaposition, comparison, analogy, and double entendre are all frequently used in satirical speech and writing.


Pointing out that satire isn't real is like pointing out that TV shows are fiction, which he also did... it would seem to miss the point.
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StateOfBedlam



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
But the exaggerated idea is a common satirical method.

Wiki wrote:
A common feature of satire is strong irony or sarcasmó"in satire, irony is militant"[2]óbut parody, burlesque, exaggeration,[3] juxtaposition, comparison, analogy, and double entendre are all frequently used in satirical speech and writing.


Pointing out that satire isn't real is like pointing out that TV shows are fiction, which he also did... it would seem to miss the point.

If that's intended as a response to me, I think you may need to reread what I said.

EDIT: Let me put it this way: "As in, making fun of a supposed stereotype that doesn't actually exist." = "As in, making fun of a stereotype."

Those two sentences sound like they contradict each other to us, but I think s/he was actually just being redundant.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, here's the thing about why TV shows using certain stereotypes indirectly affects the roles of genders in society. I'll focus on the mediatic differences between men and women.

Historically (way before the TV was even invented) men have been perceived and portrayed as strong, independent, hard working and with high leadership.

Women, on the other hand, have been portrayed as submissive, weak, emotional and given the role of housewives.

The media doesn't tell us how we will be, of course, but it gives us ideas on how we should be, at least as perceived by society. With this in mind, it's pretty much unavoidable for some men to think of women as inherently inferior, even if their conscious selves disagree.

There are so many layers of this that it's ridiculous, but I wanted to tell this: Yeah, media representation matters and we translate its stereotypes into real life.
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StateOfBedlam



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Ok, here's the thing about why TV shows using certain stereotypes indirectly affects the roles of genders in society. I'll focus on the mediatic differences between men and women.

Historically (way before the TV was even invented) men have been perceived and portrayed as strong, independent, hard working and with high leadership.

Women, on the other hand, have been portrayed as submissive, weak, emotional and given the role of housewives.

The media doesn't tell us how we will be, of course, but it gives us ideas on how we should be, at least as perceived by society. With this in mind, it's pretty much unavoidable for some men to think of women as inherently inferior, even if their conscious selves disagree.

There are so many layers of this that it's ridiculous, but I wanted to tell this: Yeah, media representation matters and we translate its stereotypes into real life.

That's all true. What I was postulating was that by "doesn't actually exist" Shadow just meant that such stereotypes were inaccurate, but you think s/he meant that the stereotypes are present in fiction, but not the public consciousness?

I should just go eat.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StateOfBedlam wrote:
EDIT: Let me put it this way: "As in, making fun of a supposed stereotype that doesn't actually exist." = "As in, making fun of a stereotype."

Those two sentences sound like they contradict each other to us, but I think s/he was actually just being redundant.

That would be an awfully odd way to use the phrase "doesn't actually exist," to mean something that does exist but in a less exaggerated state. I'm all for the principle of charity, but that seems like it would take a lot of logical contortion to get there.

EDIT: Wait, now we're talking about whether the satirized stereotypes are accurate? That seems pointless, since by definition stereotypes are based on the irrational belief that all members of some class share some set of behaviors or attributes.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm explaining the relevance. Even if you think that the trope doesn't translate to real life (It does, in its way) you still can't dismiss its importance.
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StateOfBedlam



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
StateOfBedlam wrote:
EDIT: Let me put it this way: "As in, making fun of a supposed stereotype that doesn't actually exist." = "As in, making fun of a stereotype."

Those two sentences sound like they contradict each other to us, but I think s/he was actually just being redundant.

That would be an awfully odd way to use the phrase "doesn't actually exist," to mean something that does exist but in a less exaggerated state. I'm all for the principle of charity, but that seems like it would take a lot of logical contortion to get there.

"Exaggerated notion of masculinity" = "Stereotype"

"[Men who live up to] Exaggerated notion of masculinity" do[es] not exist.

Dogen wrote:
EDIT: Wait, now we're talking about whether the satirized stereotypes are accurate? That seems pointless, since by definition stereotypes are based on the irrational belief that all members of some class share some set of behaviors or attributes.

We're not talking about anything different than we were before, just articulating it in different ways until we understand each other. My whole argument is pretty pointless now that I've spent four posts trying to articulate a theory on what another poster might have meant, so I'm gonna go now.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

manic pixie girls aren't tropes or dreams; they exist, and I am surrounded by them. not even joking.
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LadySunami



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, but Sam, I doubt you think of them solely in regard to the attributes involved in the trope. I'm sure you're more then aware they're people too, that they are fully capable of being gloomy on occasion and might even feel the need to stay at home and enjoy some quiet time sometimes.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect I've accidentally played the role of 'manic pixy dream girl' for more than one guy. I have weird hobbies that I get really excited about and I like to dress up in unconventional clothes.

They were less thrilled with me once they actually got to know me.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StateOfBedlam wrote:
"Exaggerated notion of masculinity" = "Stereotype"

"[Men who live up to] Exaggerated notion of masculinity" do[es] not exist.

Maybe I'm just an idiot, but the notion that real people don't live up to an exaggerated idea seems obvious (otherwise it wouldn't be exaggerated), and not the point of satire. If the OP meant to use the term satire, then the exaggeration is done to highlight the behavior and sometimes to make it ridiculous, not to suggest that it exists as depicted. So, to say that people don't exist that embody the exaggerated stereotype is a pointless criticism of satire, unless one makes the further argument that the behavior being exaggerated also doesn't exist (that is, there is no real person to exaggerate).

If a behavior exists that one wants to criticize, then exaggerating it to the point of ridiculousness is a normal way to satirize it.

In any event, I appreciate your willingness to defend someone else's argument, even if we didn't get very far. Very Happy
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LadySunami wrote:
Ah, but Sam, I doubt you think of them solely in regard to the attributes involved in the trope. I'm sure you're more then aware they're people too, that they are fully capable of being gloomy on occasion and might even feel the need to stay at home and enjoy some quiet time sometimes.

This is true...and in good writing we get to see that. Really the Manic Pixie Girl is only negative in the wish fulfillment sense that it sometimes exists. There's plenty of characters that fit the trope (even a few men) that are well written and flushed out without being the wish fulfillment stereotype joke Tat made here.

I think it's sad that some people get more fullfilment out of the concept of a flat, appeasing character than a rounded person with complex emotions. Like Samsally, true fun in life is knowing there's someone who changes their mood from time to time. =P
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LadySunami wrote:
Ah, but Sam, I doubt you think of them solely in regard to the attributes involved in the trope. I'm sure you're more then aware they're people too, that they are fully capable of being gloomy on occasion and might even feel the need to stay at home and enjoy some quiet time sometimes.

Dude, Sam's like an amalgam of Oberon and Titania. If he says he's surrounded by manic pixie girls, it's only cuz' they are dancing around him; they are moths to his flame . . . or maybe that's only in the sinfest slashfic I wrote about him and himself, reality's become fuzzy lately
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Shadow Master



Joined: 18 May 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StateOfBedlam wrote:

There is a profound failure to communicate going on here. By "stereotype that does not actually exist", Shadow seems to have meant "people matching this exaggerated masculine ideal do not exist", not "these notions and expectations of masculinity are not actually present in society". Please correct me if I'm wrong.


That's correct.

Words are very limiting and can often cause confusion.

Unless, of course, the recipient has the Patriarchy Blockers engaged. Then everything always makes perfect sense.
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