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2013-03-01: 50 Shades of Jesus
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3059

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Until this week, I hadn't even heard of 50 Shades of Gray.

Why, yes, I am in fact sometimes that oblivious to the world around me, thanks for noticing. Wink
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Canopus



Joined: 13 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah, it just means you're still sane.
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StateOfBedlam



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salpta wrote:
Interesting note: 50 Shades of Grey has been rumored to have started out as Twilight fanfic..

It's not a rumor, it's a known fact. No one is denying it.

WellYesYouMay wrote:
Salpta, even BDSMers hate 50 Shades. It's a horrible, unrealistic depiction of BDSM that follows none of the safe practices normal in BDSM. There have been numerous articles about this from Dom/Sub blogs. The author admitted that she knows nothing about BDSM, and wrote a book about it anyway. This was probably a bad idea (indeed, it's rather irresponsible), since the relationship described in the book in no way fits the usual kink creed of "Safe, Consensual, and Sane" and some of his restraint techniques are potentially dangerous and rejected by the community at large.

[img]http://s3.beta.photobucket.com/user/chobitten/media/The_More_You_Know_zpsd4969fad.jpg.html[/img]

Considering that the "consensual" part of that creed is ignored, I think misportraying BDSM is among the least of that book's problems (not that it isn't one of them).
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WellYesYouMay wrote:
Salpta, even BDSMers hate 50 Shades. It's a horrible, unrealistic depiction of BDSM that follows none of the safe practices normal in BDSM. There have been numerous articles about this from Dom/Sub blogs. The author admitted that she knows nothing about BDSM, and wrote a book about it anyway. This was probably a bad idea (indeed, it's rather irresponsible), since the relationship described in the book in no way fits the usual kink creed of "Safe, Consensual, and Sane" and some of his restraint techniques are potentially dangerous and rejected by the community at large.

While I'm all for responsible writing, I'm also a proponent of letting natural selection run its course.

Also, it seems the issue isn't quite so black and white in terms of how the book applies to feminism:
wiki wrote:
Fifty Shades of Grey has also attracted criticism due to its depictions of BDSM, with Katie Roiphe of Newsweek asking "But why, for women especially, would free will be a burden? ...It may be that power is not always that comfortable, even for those of us who grew up in it; it may be that equality is something we want only sometimes and in some places and in some arenas; it may be that power and all of its imperatives can be boring."[31] Andrea Reiher expressed frustration at Roiphe's depiction of the series, stating that "[b]eing submissive sexually is not tantamount to being the victim of abuse" or that they're "giving up their power or their equality with their partner".[32] Other sites such as Jezebel have responded to the article, with Jezebel listing reasons for Fifty Shades of Grey's popularity, stating that "the vast majority of fans fawn over the emotional relationship Anastasia and Christian have, not about the sex."[33] In an interview with Salon, several dominatrices have responded that while submission can be an escape from daily stresses, they also frequently have male clients and that trust is a big factor in dominant/submissive relationships. One interviewed former dominatrix and author, Melissa Febos, stated that even if the book's popularity was a result of women's "current anxieties about equality" that it "doesn't mean that it's 'evidence of unhappiness, or an invalidation of feminism,' ...it might actually be a sign of progress that millions of women are so hungrily pursuing sexual fantasies independent of men."[34]

Writing in The Huffington Post, critic Soraya Chemaly argued that interest in the series was not a trend, but squarely within the tradition and success of the romance category which is driven by tales of virgins, damaged men and submission/dominance themes. Instead, she wrote, the books are notable not for transgressive sex but for how women are using technology to subvert gendered shame by exploring explicit sexual content privately using e-readers. Instead of submission fantasies representing a post-feminist discomfort with power and free will, women's open consumption, sharing and discussion of sexual content is a feminist success.[35] At the beginning of the media hype, Dr. Drew debated sexologist Logan Levkoff on The Today Show,[36] about whether Fifty Shades perpetuated violence against women; Levkoff said that while that is an important subject, this trilogy had nothing to do with it – this was a book about a consensual relationship. Dr. Drew commented that the book was "horribly written" in addition to being "disturbing" but stated that "if the book enhances women's real-life sex lives and intimacy, so be it."[37]

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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They have an awful relationship. She's a beautiful but totally innocent 20-something, never even been kissed, who is pursued by a 20-something billionaire who is impossibly handsome (so much so that his visage frequently overrides her autonomic breathing reflex and she has to consciously breathe) and uses his money to end world hunger. Who sees nothing wrong with taking a totally naive woman and asking her to make a decision about a subject in which she has no experience and the details of which she can't have until she agrees.

Her free will is sapped the minute he looks at her (which is convenient because it means no issues ever come up that can't be fixed by threatening to break up with her), and absolutely everything he wants she eventually wants too - even if she didn't want it earlier. I haven't read the second or third book, but she barely exists as a person in the first one. She's silly putty, waiting for someone to make an impression on her, and that seems like a shitty depiction for women to be enthralled with...

Not that I have an axe to grind or anything.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't read it, and I probably won't, but Dogen:

Couldn't most of what you're saying be a charge leveled against the romance genre as a whole? Is he the male counterpart of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl? Do we call him RHYC (Rich, handsome, young, caring)? Or is he just the latest incarnation of a 'knight in shining armor'?
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StateOfBedlam



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
I didn't read it, and I probably won't, but Dogen:

Couldn't most of what you're saying be a charge leveled against the romance genre as a whole?

And supposing that it is, how accurate is this?:

TvTropes wrote:
**Disproportionate Retribution:
*In Chapter 12, when Ana sends an email to Grey saying that she doesn't want to get into BDSM and "it's been nice knowing you," Grey's immediate response is to break into her duplex apartment, tie her up—the only thing he asks permission for—and then rape her into submission. (Despite the fact that Ana has been freaking out over BDSM for several chapters, she claims that the email was a joke. Neither Ana nor her author seem to realize that this doesn't make Grey's actions one bit less horrific.)
*He also threatens to punish Ana by raping her in public on two occasions—once when he believes Ana has spoken on the phone to a male friend (she hasn't) and once when Ana refuses an extremely expensive present. His response in the first case is to threaten to screw her in the elevator going from his penthouse to the lobby (when anyone could walk in); in the second case, he threatens to hit her and then screw her on the hood of the car, because she belongs to him, and if he wants to give her Gift X, he WILL

TvTropes wrote:
**“Not If They Enjoyed It” Rationalization: Ana has a number of orgasms during the rape in Chapter 12. This is presented as equaling consent. Apparently Ana's unaware that orgasm can happen during rape—or that it doesn't mean that you've consented to anything. This is also Christian Grey's rationalization in Chapter 16 after he spanks and then screws Ana as punishment for daring to roll her eyes at him, despite Ana telling him repeatedly that, whatever her physical response, she "didn't like it" and "would rather that [he] didn't do it again."

TvTropes YMMV wrote:
**Nightmare Fuel: It's horrifying how many times Ana is struck, raped and/or abused without her consent...and yet this is presented as not only romantic but the a relationship to aspire to.

Those, on the other hand, are not charges that could be leveled against the romance genre as a whole.
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diagram12345



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StateOfBedlam wrote:
Salpta wrote:
Interesting note: 50 Shades of Grey has been rumored to have started out as Twilight fanfic..

It's not a rumor, it's a known fact. No one is denying it.

WellYesYouMay wrote:
Salpta, even BDSMers hate 50 Shades. It's a horrible, unrealistic depiction of BDSM that follows none of the safe practices normal in BDSM. There have been numerous articles about this from Dom/Sub blogs. The author admitted that she knows nothing about BDSM, and wrote a book about it anyway. This was probably a bad idea (indeed, it's rather irresponsible), since the relationship described in the book in no way fits the usual kink creed of "Safe, Consensual, and Sane" and some of his restraint techniques are potentially dangerous and rejected by the community at large.

[img]http://s3.beta.photobucket.com/user/chobitten/media/The_More_You_Know_zpsd4969fad.jpg.html[/img]

Considering that the "consensual" part of that creed is ignored, I think misportraying BDSM is among the least of that book's problems (not that it isn't one of them).


It irritates me that men have been watching/reading unrealistic porn for as long as anyone can remember, and yet when women are into unrealistic porn of another variety, everyone's suddenly a fact-checker.

Lots of porn has unrealistic depictions of BDSM -- it's only a problem with 50 Shades of Gray because in this case, the majority of the audience is female.
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StateOfBedlam



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diagram12345 wrote:
It irritates me that men have been watching/reading unrealistic porn for as long as anyone can remember, and yet when women are into unrealistic porn of another variety, everyone's suddenly a fact-checker.

Lots of porn has unrealistic depictions of BDSM -- it's only a problem with 50 Shades of Gray because in this case, the majority of the audience is female.

In my limited experience, the vast majority of porn is disgusting and unrealistic. Most of those works aren't #1 New York Times Bestsellers. If the issue is the audience, this is news to me.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is an interesting call-out though.

Twilight specifically got ripped on a lot because teenage girls liked it. So many people didn't bother to look into it any deeper than that and just assumed it was garbage because of it's audience.

I don't even like Twilight and I do think a lot of parts of it are problematic, but to dismiss it on the grounds of 'girls like it' is pretty bullshit.

That being said, it's still worth criticizing the problematic parts. I just wish it wasn't always the stuff 'made for women' that gets the most shit. (Which is why I smile every time Tat does an action hero comic.)
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StateOfBedlam wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
I didn't read it, and I probably won't, but Dogen:

Couldn't most of what you're saying be a charge leveled against the romance genre as a whole?

And supposing that it is, how accurate is this?:

-examples from tvtropes -

Those, on the other hand, are not charges that could be leveled against the romance genre as a whole.


You sure? I've read lots of horrible things about the genre. Those all seem like standard fare for romance novels. Also, Vampire Diaries . . . yeah, it could be a lot worse.
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StateOfBedlam



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
You sure? I've read lots of horrible things about the genre. Those all seem like standard fare for romance novels.

I was, but not anymore. That's kinda scary.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StateOfBedlam wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
You sure? I've read lots of horrible things about the genre. Those all seem like standard fare for romance novels.

I was, but not anymore. That's kinda scary.

Well a quick perusal of wiki on "romance novel" has this:

Quote:
In North America, romance novels are the most popular genre in modern literature, comprising almost 55% of all paperback books sold in 2004. The genre is also popular in Europe and Australia, and romance novels appear in 90 languages. Most of the books, however, are written by authors from English-speaking countries, leading to an Anglo-Saxon perspective in the fiction. Despite the popularity and widespread sales of romance novels, the genre has attracted significant derision, skepticism and criticism.


And WAY DOWN (it's a length article) it says:

Quote:
“Romances are, in fact, subversive literature: They encourage women to be dissatisfied with inequality, and to set higher expectations for themselves, and they show them ways to achieve those expectations, largely by taming men and, in a way, usurping their power. Romances are arguably the only art form of any kind that portrays women as equal partners with men.”—David Pollard
The romance genre has been popularly derided and critically ignored.
Despite recent rehabilitation and merging of the genre with other genres, the stigma attached to the romance genre continues to be strong, with some dedicated readers embarrassed to admit to buying or even reading the books.[3] The romance genre has over the years generated significant derision, skepticism and criticism. Some critics point to a lack of suspense, as it is obvious that the hero and heroine will eventually resolve their issues, and wonder whether it is beneficial "for women to be whiling away so many hours reading impossibly glamorized love stories."[3] According to fiction author Melissa Pritchard, a romance novel "perpetuates something slightly dangerous, that there's this notion, that there's this perfect love out there, and it can distract you from the work of loving yourself."[105]

Romance novelists attribute the stigma to the fact that romance is the only genre "written almost exclusively by women for women."[3] Romance novelist Jennifer Crusie counters that in the modern romance novel "a woman is rewarded with unconditional love [only] if she remains true to herself",[76] while novelist Susan Elizabeth Phillips believes that romance novels are popular because the heroine always wins, sometimes overcoming great odds so that she is no longer a victim.[24]


Also, there's many sub-genre's of romance including the one 50 shades fits into, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotic_romance_novels
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StateOfBedlam



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
StateOfBedlam wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
You sure? I've read lots of horrible things about the genre. Those all seem like standard fare for romance novels.

I was, but not anymore. That's kinda scary.

Well a quick perusal of wiki on "romance novel" has this:

[...]

That just makes it sound like the bigger issue is the stigma on the genre than the actual content, which was my original impression. None of that sounds like Romanticizing Abuse And Rape tier.
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Smooshie



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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