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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 141
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:

I don't think dudebro or mansplaining are in themselves sexist, and certainly not in the same way as "slut". Or indeed "feminazi" (that particular vernacular had the benefit of being backed by people like Rush Limbaugh). As far as severity is concerned, I think looking who uses a term how, rather than using an etymological definition.

Who do the terms "dudebro" and "mansplaining" include? When you use those terms, they are meant specifically for one sex. It's less toxic than "slut" but still, on some level, sexist.
Is a word less racist because someone of the group being insulted uses such a word? I don't think so.
Quote:

I actually think "mansplaining" has some merit as a concept, it's not the word I would prefer to use to describe that particular sense of entitlement, most times anyway, but I can certainly see what it denotes. I've seen it happen, and indeed probably done it. This is an alright piece from the Atlantic looking at it from a more macro-political standpoint.

There's also this absolutely brilliant article, which drives the point home why it's not just a problem with Ronald Reagan and that I think I've posted before: Why "Mansplaining" Is Still a Problem


But, see... it's very condescending. I've yet to hear a woman be accused of "mansplaining" and I've been around some very misogynistic women (some might call them social conservatives, or perhaps brainwashed). Not a peep. My point isn't about fairness, because frankly I don't care if a derogatory/condescending term is used for one or both sexes or for anyone. My point is that it is the antithesis of a progressive movement.

Quote:
But back to my original point, I don't think using "dudebro" as a term is a slippery slope to racism, or I suppose "misandry" in this case.

Firstly derogatory language against women is not bad just because it's mean, it's bad because it is one component of a much larger system of oppression, call it sexism, misogyny or patriarchy, it's still fundamentally the same thing. There is no equivalent "misandrist" matriarchy no matter what MRA's might tell you (and while we're at it, reverse racism? complete nonsense).

Also "dudebro" is a way to describe "Bro-culture". Which is totally also a real thing, and I believe inherently derogatory. What terminology is best when is perhaps an open discussion, but, like I've said, there is a fundamental difference.

There is no matriarchy in our first-world society, but misandry exists. It's a direct product of the patriarchy and a series of convoluted expectations of men in an increasingly progressive society. To say that one cannot be prejudiced against one group or another is ignorant and depressing. What makes the privileged group so special that it's suddenly impossible to discriminate/hate them? I've seen white people get jumped simply because they were white. Petty compared to what non-whites may experience, but still "a thing".

I'm not comfortable with "dudebro" because it is a lot wider in scope than "bro-culture," and while I'm not questioning the legitimacy of the idea that these people exist, I am dissatisfied with the idea that it is okay to use derogatory language in a progressive movement.

Felgraf wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
I can sum it up in 8 words: Dudebro is the new 'frat boy', only more inclusive.


Perhaps, but that's not necessarily a point in dudebro's favor. Since frat boys *can* actually, apparently, be pretty cool and *non*-discriminating, too.


I guess I just personally feel that 'categorizing' people, even with insults, is wrong. Because it makes it oh-so-very easy to just discount them, or even start to think of them as not-people. I'd argue trivializing people (whether as "Oh just a guy who doesn't understand" or "slut") is wrong, and can lead down a *very* dangerous path.

This is my point... kind of. Whether you see my argument as being part of a slippery-slope fallacy or simply me pointing out that these problems are all signs of a movement towards trivialization and some degree of prejudice. I don't want feminism to fail, I just want its supporters to stay the course of progressivism.

Darqcyde wrote:
I see your point, but that's moot. Dudebro was never meant to be non-pejoritive. It's like saying asshole, or shithead, or scumbag, only with a different, more specific definition.


It's just... not an okay thing.

Dogen wrote:
How do you know it's accurate? What specific things do dudebros do and believe? Is there a survey you have people fill out before you apply the term? It sounds like you're describing a stereotype.

I believe it is very much a sterotype, but then again, those things sometimes form innocently enough. It's a lot like Piaget's assimilation schema: you make sense the world based on the information available to you. Stereotypes are basically just behavioral expectations a lot of people have. They can be hurtful.




Just imagine yourself in conversation with a misogynist whose opinion on feminism may or may not change based on what you say. Do you come forward with your "dudebro" and "mansplaining" stuff, even if he's saying things you find offensive?
Let's reframe the question: you find yourself in conversation with a ten-year-old who currently holds a misogynistic view of the world, and your words may or may not change how he sees things. Do you come forward with derogatory language and prejudice? I'd certainly hope not.

If someone disagrees with you and you fail to persuade them, the idea that they are inherently bad people because they don't get it/see things as you do and are thus worthy of scorn and aggression will only exacerbate things; In other words, you're proving their own negative beliefs about you and those who share your views as being right. A misogynist will never listen to someone who spends their time yelling and throwing around ad-hominem attacks and insults. They will also not listen to any rhetoric that features, as a central point, language that derogates males. You may not like to hear it, but being mean isn't how you persuade people, and it most certainly isn't how they learn.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:


Like this frat that is helping pay/raise money for a trans member's FtM gender reassignment surgery.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/26/phi-alpha-tau-transgender-surgery_n_2765653.html


This is awesome btw.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
How do you know it's accurate? What specific things do dudebros do and believe? Is there a survey you have people fill out before you apply the term? It sounds like you're describing a stereotype.

You're right, I made an assumption. I was assuming the meaning of "dudebro" being used was to refer to those with a mindset that is in opposition towards true sexual equality by maintaining a status quo of male privilege and superiority yet while in a state of ignorance as to the harm they may cause, espouse, or other unwittingly advocate through their actions and speech; effectively (but not necessarily definitively) synonymous with the term misogynist. To paraphrase from elsewhere: there are dudes and there are bros, but this does not automatically make any of them "dudebros".

Also it's a lot shorter and quicker to type--it's a label of convenience indicative of our laziness as a society and culture.

Or maybe not. Maybe . . . just maybe, a dudebro is a just a straight up little pile of dog time http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=u11gyD9cf5o

Ok, so I guess it started as a reference to people who support (purchase and play) games described here: http://www.pittnews.com/index.php/impulse/70859-violent-video-games-contain-sexism-racism

So geek/nerd culture + mainstream culture = the rise of the dudebros

looking back, I think this all just affirms my initial assessment: dudebro is the new frat boy. And no, progressive movements shouldn't use pejoratives.
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Smooshie



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
And no, progressive movements shouldn't use pejoratives.

That's really my point here, lol
I just identify "dudebro" as a pejorative
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm gonna re-iterate:

Quote:
Also it's a lot shorter and quicker to type--it's a label of convenience indicative of our laziness as a society and culture.


It's cumbersome and ineffective to call someone a "_________" and having to fill in that blank with a half dozen list of common traits. Eventually, yes, dudebro should not be used. Right now though, and in the foreseeable near future, I think it's more effective to stick with the label. When I speak of laziness I'm not only talking about writers but readers as well.

Is it a hypocritical compromise? You betcha, but you don't bring a knife to a gun fight, and that's what most people using the term dude bro are doing, bringing their own guns.

To continue the gun fight metaphor, what you really need to do to win is not fight at all, but I don't think we're there yet. I think you need people fighting to gain ground while others work on non-hostile initiatives of re-educating people; as long as there's the Rush Limbaugh's of the world tossing out "bleeding-heart liberal feminazi" as a pejorative I'm fine with people retorting with cries of "fuck you mansplaining dudebro". Feminism is effectively a revolution against the entirety of human cultural history, nothing is going to change if people are overly concerned with being nice.
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Smooshie



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
I'm gonna re-iterate:

Quote:
Also it's a lot shorter and quicker to type--it's a label of convenience indicative of our laziness as a society and culture.


It's cumbersome and ineffective to call someone a "_________" and having to fill in that blank with a half dozen list of common traits. Eventually, yes, dudebro should not be used. Right now though, and in the foreseeable near future, I think it's more effective to stick with the label. When I speak of laziness I'm not only talking about writers but readers as well.

Is it a hypocritical compromise? You betcha, but you don't bring a knife to a gun fight, and that's what most people using the term dude bro are doing, bringing their own guns.

To continue the gun fight metaphor, what you really need to do to win is not fight at all, but I don't think we're there yet. I think you need people fighting to gain ground while others work on non-hostile initiatives of re-educating people; as long as there's the Rush Limbaugh's of the world tossing out "bleeding-heart liberal feminazi" as a pejorative I'm fine with people retorting with cries of "fuck you mansplaining dudebro". Feminism is effectively a revolution against the entirety of human cultural history, nothing is going to change if people are overly concerned with being nice.

...I don't think you understand what it's like to be a misogynist and have a feminist/progressive tell you you are wrong. It is awful and degrading and nobody is ever nice about it. It makes one want to "turn back," so to speak. "Fuck them, they're a bunch of feminazi bitches," one might say while nursing their wounds.
I guess my other point beyond derogatory language is that being mean only proves people wrong or makes them retreat further into their toxic ideologies. There are going to be people who will react negatively to anything that challenges their worldview, but then again, feminism's success so far is a sign that they are in the minority.

Nobody's beyond "salvation". Don't be mean.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuck that, there are millions of people out there beyond salvation.

"No one is beyond salvation" is a platitude people tell themselves because they dont want to face the fact that the world is full of nasty assholes who care about nothing but their own comfort and their own ability to do whatever they want over anyone elses basic rights or dignity.

America's full of em. We know Wal-mart flirts with some hideous and heinous business practices, but we don't care cause its cheap.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

are you seriously trying to describe "telling a misogynist that they're wrong" as "awful and degrading"?

the fuck?
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, now Smooshie loses me again. I feel like a yo-yo. I'm down with not using stereotyped pejoratives to marginalize anyone. I'm even down with not being a dick to people for no reason. I didn't slog through a 40-ish-page thread citing psychological research left and right for nothing. Being nice to people makes them more likely to be receptive, and being mean makes them less likely. That's why I... Well I sort of usually start out nice. I mean, I try. Usually.

But I'm not nice all the time, and even when I pull it off nice is still a two way street. If I'm nice and they sling shit the gloves come off.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
But I'm not nice all the time, and even when I pull it off nice is still a two way street. If I'm nice and they sling shit the gloves come off.


ITT: Dogen is actually The Hulk.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Smooshie



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Fuck that, there are millions of people out there beyond salvation.

"No one is beyond salvation" is a platitude people tell themselves because they dont want to face the fact that the world is full of nasty assholes who care about nothing but their own comfort and their own ability to do whatever they want over anyone elses basic rights or dignity.

America's full of em. We know Wal-mart flirts with some hideous and heinous business practices, but we don't care cause its cheap.


Why so angry at the world? Have you considered that most people don't know better? Not everyone is as intelligent as you. To that end, are you so sure they have a choice? Walmart chokes out local businesses and establishes itself in areas that large amounts of backwoods people can get to with relative ease. A company's business practices don't matter when they're the only store under a quarter gas tank's drive away. Plus, the people that shop there are generally poor; you should see it on the first few days of every month. I've been to at least five and it's the same story: everyone on welfare that's able to get to a Wal-mart goes there because it's cheaper. Are they assholes?

Your reasoning also has the unfortunate flaw of being similar to that of the government's on federal crimes: intent is no longer examined. You either do evil or you don't, and there are no such things as accidents and coercion.
Before you discount my platitudes, please consider that not everyone has the luxury of choice that you do (I'm assuming you do).

ShadowCell wrote:
are you seriously trying to describe "telling a misogynist that they're wrong" as "awful and degrading"?

the fuck?

there is a difference between some iteration of "I disagree" or "you're wrong" and "stop your mansplaining you fucking asshole"

I hear and see the latter much more often. My college has some pretty nasty "progressives" who get really riled up when you say something about the patriarchy hurting men.

I forgot to mention that a lot of so-called progressives are self-righteous jerks and it shows in their speech. Nothing like having someone get offended at you for having a different opinion or, I don't know, not knowing better.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
I'm gonna re-iterate:

Quote:
Also it's a lot shorter and quicker to type--it's a label of convenience indicative of our laziness as a society and culture.


It's cumbersome and ineffective to call someone a "_________" and having to fill in that blank with a half dozen list of common traits. Eventually, yes, dudebro should not be used. Right now though, and in the foreseeable near future, I think it's more effective to stick with the label. When I speak of laziness I'm not only talking about writers but readers as well.

Is it a hypocritical compromise? You betcha, but you don't bring a knife to a gun fight, and that's what most people using the term dude bro are doing, bringing their own guns.

To continue the gun fight metaphor, what you really need to do to win is not fight at all, but I don't think we're there yet. I think you need people fighting to gain ground while others work on non-hostile initiatives of re-educating people; as long as there's the Rush Limbaugh's of the world tossing out "bleeding-heart liberal feminazi" as a pejorative I'm fine with people retorting with cries of "fuck you mansplaining dudebro". Feminism is effectively a revolution against the entirety of human cultural history, nothing is going to change if people are overly concerned with being nice.

...I don't think you understand what it's like to be a misogynist and have a feminist/progressive tell you you are wrong. It is awful and degrading and nobody is ever nice about it. It makes one want to "turn back," so to speak. "Fuck them, they're a bunch of feminazi bitches," one might say while nursing their wounds.
I guess my other point beyond derogatory language is that being mean only proves people wrong or makes them retreat further into their toxic ideologies. There are going to be people who will react negatively to anything that challenges their worldview, but then again, feminism's success so far is a sign that they are in the minority.

Nobody's beyond "salvation". Don't be mean.


As I see it, misogynists who segregate themselves and, thereby doing so, make themselves more recognizable as the asswipes they are, only makes avoiding and dealing with them easier in the long run. It's like KKK members who wear burning crosses openly-- I'm cool with that. I know they're a racist asshat I'd rather avoid.

Sadly, a lot of people need the verbal slap of being called a dudebro. Going back to racism, I've known people who, in ignorance, acted racistly until they were openly called on it. In terms of the comic, Slick needed to hear it. His reaction of buying a fembot to create his idealized relationship is proof of his inability to accept his own faults, which is okay, because it makes him tragically flawed, like he's been from the beginning. The day Slick grows up is the day the comic will truly end.
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:40 am; edited 2 times in total
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Smooshie



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:

As I see it, misogynists who segregate themselves and, thereby doing so, make themselves more recognizable as the asswipes they are, only makes avoiding and dealing with them easier in the long run. It's like KKK members who wear burning crosses openly-- I'm cool with that. I know they're a racist asshat I'd rather avoid.

Fair enough. I'd rather they not exist, but free speech and all that. At least they're nice enough to wear their prejudice like a badge. Some jerks don't let you find out until they've hurt you.

Quote:
Sadly, a lot of people need the verbal slap of being called a dudebro. Going back to racism, I've known people who, in ignorance, acted racistly until they were openly called on it.

I'm dubious. Is the pejorative really necessary? Like, will calling me a dick make me go "hmm, maybe this person has a point"? I can't help but wonder if the people you speak of are in the minority. I have neither the experience nor the data to prove or disprove your claim.

Quote:
In terms of the comic, Slick needed to hear it. His reaction of buying a fembot to create his idealized relationship is proof of his inability to accept his own faults, which is okay, because it makes him tragically flawed, like he's been from the beginning. The day Slick grows up is the day the comic will truly end.

I suppose so.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
I'm dubious. Is the pejorative really necessary? Like, will calling me a dick make me go "hmm, maybe this person has a point"? I can't help but wonder if the people you speak of are in the minority. I have neither the experience nor the data to prove or disprove your claim.


First off you're doubtful, not dubious.

Secondly, you have to accept the fact that some people are irredeemable--they don't want to change, they aren't going to change. Nothing you do or say will make them change. You don't need to be nice to these people, you don't need to curry to them, 'cuz guess what? They're not going to be nice to you.

Most of the time I've seen the term Dudebro used it's been part of a rant, and rant's aren't always about changing people, rants are about venting negative emotions or calling attention to things. You don't need to be nice to accomplish this successfully. They're basically this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkcoobYUu8g

If you've never been in a position where you needed to give out a round of fuck you's, guess what? You're probably privileged (take that term for whatever meaning you wish, because several apply). If you can't understand someone else's anger and hurt then you need to figure out why that is. Sometimes, you simply never can.
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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