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2013-03-03: Male Gaze
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tricksterson



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 453

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a problem with what they did or why, my problem is stylistic. The Sisterhood's victories are too easy. They're in danger of becoming http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InvincibleHero this
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Last edited by tricksterson on Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Confuzledish



Joined: 21 Jul 2012
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I miss the days when this webcomic covered something other than this one issue. It used to make me think, question my own beliefs, laugh, get upset, reevaluate myself. Now I go to the front page, see what he's posting and just sigh.

Honestly, the author could save a ton of time by just putting up a giant banner saying "MEN ARE EVIL - WOMEN ARE BETTER" and avoid the need of making any more drawings.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, didn't see the list. Hasty reading. If we go with that, the answer is kinda damn simple: While I don't know about the 'cock', all of the big Hollywood actors today have the smile and the eyes (Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp, Leo DiCaprio. Matt Damon COULD be counted as an exception, but he's mostly an action hero guy.) so yeah, in that area the female gaze is tremendously invasive on cinemas, just subtler than the male gaze.

If you want to dig up a longer list, though, that's completely fine. It's good for the sake of debate plus I could use that info.

One thing is clear, though: This information is blurry. Far blurrier than with males. Appealing to a woman's sexuality is a challenge, not so much with males. So we can't blame advertising for not aiming at the former nearly as often.
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Eiden



Joined: 02 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tricksterson wrote:
I don't have a problem with what they did or why, my problem is stylistic. The Sisterhood's victories are too easy. They're in danger of becoming http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InvincibleHero this


To be honest, I think they are already that.
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Mr. Meddler



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, we can pull the Second Labor of Hercules here. One gets destroyed, two more are put into action.

Of course, they could try to destroy the main head, but that will never happen, methinks.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eiden wrote:
tricksterson wrote:
I don't have a problem with what they did or why, my problem is stylistic. The Sisterhood's victories are too easy. They're in danger of becoming http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InvincibleHero this


To be honest, I think they are already that.


Be careful, your in danger of calling them Gary Stu's.

Edit: Correction they are already on the list... ...
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Sorry, didn't see the list. Hasty reading. If we go with that, the answer is kinda damn simple: While I don't know about the 'cock', all of the big Hollywood actors today have the smile and the eyes (Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp, Leo DiCaprio. Matt Damon COULD be counted as an exception, but he's mostly an action hero guy.) so yeah, in that area the female gaze is tremendously invasive on cinemas, just subtler than the male gaze.

If you want to dig up a longer list, though, that's completely fine. It's good for the sake of debate plus I could use that info.

One thing is clear, though: This information is blurry. Far blurrier than with males. Appealing to a woman's sexuality is a challenge, not so much with males. So we can't blame advertising for not aiming at the former nearly as often.


Ok, so. I'm not being sarcastic, it's just hard to tell if you understand my argument but are disagreeing with me, or if you don't get what I'm arguing, so...

First, you do get that the concept of "male gaze" and "female gaze" goes beyond having a potentially attractive individual just existing in a certain space. The mere existence of an attractive guy doesn't mean the "female gaze" is present, and conversely a movie can be chock full of sexy ladies and conceivably use no or nearly no "male gaze." (Although the latter one, at least isn't probably going to happen in our society)

Beyond that, Moniquill's list was specifically in relation to the kinds of porny images ladies would like to see, so yes, at least when it comes to porn, cock. The linked article about Filament magazine also touches on the demand for such porn for women (as opposed to what men think women want in their porn), and the difficulties in making it happen that have nothing to do with alleged lacks of demand.

So, cock applies to the wider concept, but I agree not necessarily to movies. Shall we replace it with "inviting" shirtless scenes and loving shots of shapely asses?

And wow that last thing, it's just... Information on women's sexual preferences is blurry today like information about their career preferences was blurry 70 years ago.

And really, at this point, quite honestly, it's not even that blurry.**

I can and will and do blame advertising, media, books, and every other form of thing that involves some sort of perspective, if they constantly favor the male gaze to the exclusion of everything else, because that is a harmful thing for society and they deserve criticism, and they can and should be expected to do better.

NTM that it's not as if this is some pure business decision made in a vaccum. I remember a female-gaze catering ad from a few years ago, and forgive me I've forgotten the specifics but there was a backlash about how "gay" it was from conservative elements because it's just that inconceivable that women could have sexually desirous gazes too.

**And let's be clear, it isn't as if most people have answers that are all that concrete or specific when it comes to what men want. Even in this thread, it's largely gone unspoken explicitly, but it seems to me that the answer being implied is something along the lines of " uhm... hot women?" and while that's not uncommon for discussions like these, it's baffling that usually people want an illustrated, itemized list with graphs and a p-value when it comes to answering the same question for women. (This is more a comment on the general double standard for "evidence" of preferences, than it is a specific comment on anything you said)
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lol



Joined: 16 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confuzledish wrote:
I miss the days when this webcomic covered something other than this one issue. It used to make me think, question my own beliefs, laugh, get upset, reevaluate myself. Now I go to the front page, see what he's posting and just sigh.

Honestly, the author could save a ton of time by just putting up a giant banner saying "MEN ARE EVIL - WOMEN ARE BETTER" and avoid the need of making any more drawings.

The strip before last was about a religious fundamentalist. What are you on about?

Where did the comic suggest female superiority or male inferiority?
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol wrote:
Confuzledish wrote:
I miss the days when this webcomic covered something other than this one issue. It used to make me think, question my own beliefs, laugh, get upset, reevaluate myself. Now I go to the front page, see what he's posting and just sigh.

Honestly, the author could save a ton of time by just putting up a giant banner saying "MEN ARE EVIL - WOMEN ARE BETTER" and avoid the need of making any more drawings.

The strip before last was about a religious fundamentalist. What are you on about?

Where did the comic suggest female superiority or male inferiority?


Just a suggestion, but believing that women have a way to know exactly what a man is actually thinking?

I mean, if women can intrinsically know what a man actually thinks, yet the opposite is not true, shows a superiority over the other.

Edit: I took this as an example in the comic, not in real life, though I do think people think this is true anyway.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cactuar: Yeah, yeah, I'm aware that male gaze does not only imply the presence of attractive women, but the shots and scenes that are made to accentuate that attractiveness. Such shots often get in the way of the films and are quite blatant about it.

My big question is how can anyone expect to do the same kind of fanservice for women. Yeah, your list was applied to porn, so a more general list would be cool, but if we go by what we know, seeing Brad Pitt smile like a goof every five scenes counts as fanservice, since, as it was said, "sexy poses" for men only attract a variety of men.

My postulate all in all: Male gaze is a completely understandable way to attract a male audience by means of appealing to their sexual preferences. The reason why a counterpart isn't nearly as common is because it's tricky.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
My postulate all in all: Male gaze is a completely simple way to attract a male audience by means of appealing to their sexual preferences. The reason why a counterpart isn't nearly as common is because it's hard and directors and screenwriters are lazy.

Fixed that for ya.

PS there is a TON of female fanservice - it is called a Romantic Comedy.

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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would again edit your post to change 'lazy' to 'want to make money'. Its a weird bastard circle of the audience wants a certain thing so mainstream artists create that thing for the audience and in doing so tell the audience what they want to see which they then tell the mainstream artists with ticket sales etc.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well yeah, romantic comedies are fanservice indeed, but since they don't attempt to do appeal at a physical level you can't call that female gaze.

Simple/lazy? Ehh, arguable. The practice is, indeed, simple, but the execution in a market in which thousands are attempting the same thing gets complicated. You want to be the best.

To take it to a completely different realm, let's talk about hamburgers. In my city, a while ago, there were posters that illuminated at night that featured a dude eating a hamburger. It advertised this one particular McDonald that was open until 5 am.

Those posters were attempting to appeal to my hunger (alternatively, gluttony) by offering me an option of where to eat after going to the club. Since options are limited, McDonalds becomes really tempting. Good advertisement.

What's the difference between that and an ad which depends on beautiful women to appeal to my sexual desire/lust? I don't see a lot of difference right there. As I said, nothing wrong with it.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you honestly don't see the difference between using a person and using a hamburger in an advertisement?

i guess this explains why the hamburger one actually works on you
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lol



Joined: 16 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:

Just a suggestion, but believing that women have a way to know exactly what a man is actually thinking?

I mean, if women can intrinsically know what a man actually thinks, yet the opposite is not true, shows a superiority over the other.

Edit: I took this as an example in the comic, not in real life, though I do think people think this is true anyway.

What strip are you talking about specifically? Did it have to do with feminism?
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