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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canopus wrote:
Dogen gets it. People can't put themselves in others' shoes without the temptation to project. Everyone present has had that experience at least once, if I'm allowed to project of course.

There's an instinct to label, but it tends to bear the weight of a person's own value-system about the world. Drawing lines in the sand, will more likely than not, be soaked with the sea foam of personal bias. Or maybe dust from biased seashells, I dunno. Anyway, those values can't be gauged towards everyone. People have different reasons and ways for going about society, and despite that, we can't forget we're all in this place together. A little compassion goes a long way. As for the people who complacently attack women, they're utterly misguided for that realm of thought, so why should an intelligent dissenter bring themselves down to their level and fan the bonfire? Regardless of their personal scenario.

I hope I'm making a useful post. Best regards.


I do get what you're saying and you do have a really valid point.

But people still listen to the shitheads that dismiss women over and over and over again with a veritable arsenal of gendered slurs.

People still listen to them. They have talk shows and shit.

The instant the feminist movement adopts a term like 'dudebro' though and conversations like this happen. "Nobody will listen to you."

Of course they won't. That's the whole problem.
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Canopus wrote:
Dogen gets it. People can't put themselves in others' shoes without the temptation to project. Everyone present has had that experience at least once, if I'm allowed to project of course.

There's an instinct to label, but it tends to bear the weight of a person's own value-system about the world. Drawing lines in the sand, will more likely than not, be soaked with the sea foam of personal bias. Or maybe dust from biased seashells, I dunno. Anyway, those values can't be gauged towards everyone. People have different reasons and ways for going about society, and despite that, we can't forget we're all in this place together. A little compassion goes a long way. As for the people who complacently attack women, they're utterly misguided for that realm of thought, so why should an intelligent dissenter bring themselves down to their level and fan the bonfire? Regardless of their personal scenario.

I hope I'm making a useful post. Best regards.


I do get what you're saying and you do have a really valid point.

But people still listen to the shitheads that dismiss women over and over and over again with a veritable arsenal of gendered slurs.

People still listen to them. They have talk shows and shit.

The instant the feminist movement adopts a term like 'dudebro' though and conversations like this happen. "Nobody will listen to you."

Of course they won't. That's the whole problem.


Yes, because we (that is, those of us that are here, having this discussion) totally agree with those assholes. Right.

And before you go "Well, you're not arguing against them doing stuff like that in this thread", that's because, for the most part, *they're not present here*. And when they do show up, they *do* get dogpiled on, and *HARD*.

In fact, we are using those bad people *as an example* for why it may be bad to marginalize and categorize. Because, yes, *it is wrong and horrible when they do it*.
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Canopus



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People listen. Those few are worth more than the mob combined.

I don't claim to have the answers, but I can tell when a battle isn't worth fighting. Everyone knows irrational people past the age of twenty five are neurophysiologically fixed to their mindset, and aren't going to concede to logic, or contrapositions for that matter. Even the most eloquent are unable to change them. It's just a woeful fact of experience.

I mean jesus christ, some Japanese faculty and civilians have transparently expressed their dislike of me, but I don't judge them because their livelihood and values, as closed as it is, is stacked on that racism. One of my mistakes from learning abroad was wandering away from campus without heeding the consequences. I've heard the stories, but it was still very frustrating experience that I can't even respond to a Japanese xenophobe without being dismissed by a seemingly fair minded local authority as a mere foreigner. Despite all the negativity, it brightens my day knowing that their open minded citizens will help in determining the future of their society. Likewise, our society as a whole will better when women have further freedom, but this will sooner happen when both sides keep in mind that no one really has a right to tell others what to think (though with the dirty mudslinging, they would better be off not admitting it).
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you miss the part where I said Canopus has a valid point and I understand it?

I am not arguing that marginalizing people isn't bad.

I'm pointing out that part of the big problem is that to even get listened to we have to be pristine pillars of perfection or people like you swoop in to shake your head disapprovingly.

You can't act like these forums exist in a void because they just don't.

Why don't you spend your energy calling out everyone who dismisses a woman with a gendered slur, instead?
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Tekii



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, has the last few pages really been a bunch of predominately guys complaining about the term dudebro because its gendered and applying a stereotype despite the fact that the terms dude and bro were given by guys to themselves and just combined by some feminists as a term for particularly hateful homophobic misogynistic asses who think masculinity is the be all end all and call anyone who doesn't fit into their own stereotype of what a man should be pussy's or fags and the like?

And in a thread about feminism and equality and all the stuff women have to deal with they're still being told how to talk, how to act, how to react?
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, pretty much.
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Did you miss the part where I said Canopus has a valid point and I understand it?

I am not arguing that marginalizing people isn't bad.

I'm pointing out that part of the big problem is that to even get listened to we have to be pristine pillars of perfection or people like you swoop in to shake your head disapprovingly.

You can't act like these forums exist in a void because they just don't.

Why don't you spend your energy calling out everyone who dismisses a woman with a gendered slur, instead?


I'm not swooping in and saying "FEMINISM BAD! YOU USING GENDERED SLURS, THEREFOR ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE INVALID". I've been pointing out why I'm uncomfortable with them, and why I think they *are* bad. That doesn't reflect on *feminism*. It doesn't necessarily even reflect on you as a person. I don't think less of you for it.

(Not that you need my approval, or NEED me to think highly of you, or quite frankly even *care* what I think of you! Just, you used the word 'clucking dissaprovingly and such).

But language shapes how we think, so we kind of have to be careful with it. So I voiced my opinion that I thought using a word and just categorizing folks as "Can be ignored, clearly will never say anything worthwhile" is wrong and dangerous. Perhaps I should not have done that.

And, as I said, do you see those people here? In the forum? If not, how in gods name do you know I *don't* take people to task for dismissing folks as 'ah, just a slut, who will listen to her?" or "Well, you're just being a *woman* now, and you're clearly just acting hysterical, so your arguments are invalid". Granted, I don't exactly have rush Limbaughs ear, nor do I know how I'd engage in a dialogue with him. Nor do you know whether or not I, say, volunteer at a girlscout camp for a week every summer doing sciency experiments, or other such things (Other things that are taught at this camp are archery. Also swordfighting with foam swords but real fencing rules.)

Now, to be fair, I don't encounter folks like that often in the 'wild', not because they don't exist, but because I don't encounter.. well, many people at all in my day to day worklife (hooray, being a grad student and doing research forever. >.>)

No, I can't act like these forums exist in a void. And I'm sure you have to deal with a lot of shit in your everyday life. But people can be concerned about more than one thing at once, and just because I'm going "Maybe we shouldn't use stuff like dudebro, isn't that in some way just reinforcing the patriarchy, segregating terms soley by gender?", doesn't mean I can't *also* get even more frustrated at folks who, well, use derrogatory gendered terms.

Just like how it's possible to be concerned about feminism *and* other horrible things in the world. Just how I think it's silly to go "No, we can't worry about the oppression women face in the US until genocide in africa is solved! Or until homosexuals can marry! Or until there are no longer people dying of starvation, oppression, or treatable diseases!"

But most importantly, I voiced concerns like that because,f rankly, I consider most of the people who post here *rational human beings*. I won't argue with Limbaugh, I admit, because I very much doubt he'd change his mind. Also because I *highly* suspect he's simply exploiting existing prejudices for money, whether or not he *has* such prejudices himself. If what he cares about is the money, I'm not going to be able to sway him on a grad student's salary. And I can't exactly launch my own talk show because, well, yea. But you people care about doing what you think is right, and what you think is just, and quite frankly I think you're all pretty cool folks (even if I haven't been here for a bit). So I say my piece, and point out why I disagree.

And you may not agree with me. And that's cool! But I got snarky and frustrated because your post seemed to imply "Oh, if you dont' like gendered terms being used by the feminist movement, that must mean you MUST like the assholes that call girls sluts because they testified about how their friend lost an ovary due to lack of birth control." And that kind of got my dander up. I perhaps reacted in frustration before I should have, so I apologize for the snark.
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tekii wrote:
Wait, has the last few pages really been a bunch of predominately guys complaining about the term dudebro because its gendered and applying a stereotype despite the fact that the terms dude and bro were given by guys to themselves and just combined by some feminists as a term for particularly hateful homophobic misogynistic asses who think masculinity is the be all end all and call anyone who doesn't fit into their own stereotype of what a man should be pussy's or fags and the like?

And in a thread about feminism and equality and all the stuff women have to deal with they're still being told how to talk, how to act, how to react?


No, you're free to use whatever term you like. Is my saying "I'm not sure that's such a good term: Isn't it still sort of enforcing a gender stereotype? Isn't categorizing people sort of one of the *sources* of this problem" is that insulting. I'm not saying you can't use the word, but I *AM* saying why I don't like it.
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Tekii



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:

No, you're free to use whatever term you like. Is my saying "I'm not sure that's such a good term: Isn't it still sort of enforcing a gender stereotype? Isn't categorizing people sort of one of the *sources* of this problem" is that insulting. I'm not saying you can't use the word, but I *AM* saying why I don't like it.


What gender stereotype is it enforcing?
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate the apology.

I didn't mean to imply I thought you felt feminism is bad so if I came across that way I apologize for that. I was trying to point out that women tend to get a lot of people 'policing' their language (some more forcefully than others) but it all boils down to this message that "they can get away with it but you can't."

I don't know you personally and I don't know how you'd react to gendered slurs within hearing, but all the same, I don't understand why it's so important for you to tell us that you don't approve of the term 'dudebro'.

You've added a lot of 'you don't need to listen to me but' caveats in there, so I guess I'm just confused.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
Tekii wrote:
Wait, has the last few pages really been a bunch of predominately guys complaining about the term dudebro because its gendered and applying a stereotype despite the fact that the terms dude and bro were given by guys to themselves and just combined by some feminists as a term for particularly hateful homophobic misogynistic asses who think masculinity is the be all end all and call anyone who doesn't fit into their own stereotype of what a man should be pussy's or fags and the like?

And in a thread about feminism and equality and all the stuff women have to deal with they're still being told how to talk, how to act, how to react?


No, you're free to use whatever term you like. Is my saying "I'm not sure that's such a good term: Isn't it still sort of enforcing a gender stereotype? Isn't categorizing people sort of one of the *sources* of this problem" is that insulting. I'm not saying you can't use the word, but I *AM* saying why I don't like it.

Do you know the origins of the term? Do you realize how abhorrently sexist geek and video game cultures are? That is the source of dudebro, people who are more likely than not, going to A) ignore you unless you get their attention with a term like dudebro B) ignore you regardless of what you say to them. Sure there will be other reactions, but these two will be in the majority.

Soem reading and what not:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/07/13/on-anita-sarkeesian-sexism-in-video-games-and-why-we-need-to-have-the-conversation-even-if-it-feeds-the-trolls/
http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2012/07/10/513912/anita-sarkeesian-stephanie-guthrie-and-the-strategic-failures-of-trolls/?mobile=nc
http://www.pittnews.com/index.php/impulse/70859-violent-video-games-contain-sexism-racism

Note that there's links in those articles to more articles; there is A LOT on this subject.

Also, if you play video games, spend some time, watch these videos (which are posted earlier in this thread, but I'll repost em)
Even if you play games, and even if you've played them a lot or for the last 25+ years like I have, without a critical understanding of the social issues presented by and in games and an understanding who is playing these games and how they view the world, your arguments are going to lack a degree of depth:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/diversity
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/sex-in-games
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/race-in-games
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/sexual-diversity
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/propaganda-games
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/true-female-characters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/learning-from-other-m

Also, just because a person uses the term dudebro, even if intended to "not be nice", it doesn't automatically make what they are saying the equivalent of shitcock (as per the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory), which seems to be the insiuation (whether they realize it or not) behind those deriding use of the term dudebro. I was a dudebro, I've known and still know lots of dudebros. Most can be called such and be accurately and objectively categorized as dudebros; Their attitudes, actions, and expressed beliefs make this so. A person who espouses racism is a racist. A person who acts and thinks like a dudebro is, well, a dudebro. If a person is directly addressed as a dudebro, it' sup to them to do some self introspection and come to terms with the fact that they just might be a person possessing and exhibiting views that others find to be bad things.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, when I call someone out for being too harsh/using derogatory language/etc - I expect the ability to not be a dick out of feminists. I do not expect that ability out of people like Rush Limbaugh. Rush Limbaugh and the like shouldn't get away with it.
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
I appreciate the apology.

I didn't mean to imply I thought you felt feminism is bad so if I came across that way I apologize for that. I was trying to point out that women tend to get a lot of people 'policing' their language (some more forcefully than others) but it all boils down to this message that "they can get away with it but you can't."

I don't know you personally and I don't know how you'd react to gendered slurs within hearing, but all the same, I don't understand why it's so important for you to tell us that you don't approve of the term 'dudebro'.

You've added a lot of 'you don't need to listen to me but' caveats in there, so I guess I'm just confused.


I felt it was so important to tell youb ecause... um. Well, the reason we post anything on this forum? To talk about it?

I guess because, I feel like it's saying "Here's a category of horrible people, horrible because they hold opinion X and have a Y chromosome." It makes me uncomfortable because labeling folks as 'dudebro' seems to be a way to just... dismiss someone opinions, much like simply going "Oh well, she's just a slut, don't listen to her', and that I feel that's a dangerous path to walk down, and one that wouldn't necessarily be fruitful or helpful. *Shrugs*. I'm basically adding all of those caveats because I'm saying "This is my opinion", and I'm adding those caveats because... well, judging by some of the responses, it seemed like me saying 'This is my opinion!' was, somehow... demanding you NOT use the language 'cause I didn't like it, or something? I guess sometimes I feel like I'm kind of walking on eggshells here because I have a Y chromosome.

And when there's posts like
"Wait, has the last few pages really been a bunch of predominately guys.." *snip* "
And in a thread about feminism and equality and all the stuff women have to deal with they're still being told how to talk, how to act, how to react?"

WEll, I worry that my stating my opinion (and why such terms may make me uncomfortable) is, for some reason, being taken as 'telling you how to react', since... I'm not sure why it's being taken that way. Maybe just because "I HAVE A PENIIISSSS" (as our favorite action movies would put it =P), or something. But that's why i'm adding all those caveats, I suppose.

Tekii wrote:

What gender stereotype is it enforcing?
Blargh. Gender stereotype was the wrong word, you're right. More...

Well, let me put it this way.

Are you going to call a girl a dudebro? Even if she holds similarly misogynistic opinions? Because... well, there ARE misogynistic women out there. There are women out there who are even saying things like "Women probably shouldn't have the right to vote." Some of them are members of congress.
Would you call Michelle Bachman, for instance (Homophobic, preettyyyy misogynistic" a dudebro?

Darqcyde wrote:

Also, just because a person uses the term dudebro, even if intended to "not be nice", it doesn't automatically make what they are saying the equivalent of shitcock (as per the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory), which seems to be the insiuation (whether they realize it or not) behind those deriding use of the term dudebro. I was a dudebro, I've known and still know lots of dudebros. Most can be called such and be accurately and objectively categorized as dudebros; Their attitudes, actions, and expressed beliefs make this so. A person who espouses racism is a racist. A person who acts and thinks like a dudebro is, well, a dudebro. If a person is directly addressed as a dudebro, it' sup to them to do some self introspection and come to terms with the fact that they just might be a person possessing and exhibiting views that others find to be bad things.


I think we are speaking at cross purposes here, and arguing different things.

I don't dislike the term dudebro because it's 'not nice'. I am FINE with not nice language.

I dislike the term dude bro because, among other things, it is an insult you're, well, going to only apply to one gender, and with it carries the sort of implicit implication that "Only men are assholes like this", even if that's not *intended*. I dislike it not because it's mean, but because it seems like a very handy way to categorize and *utterly dismiss people*, and I do not like categorization like that, whether it is "Oh you're just a stupid bimbo, why should I listen to what you think?" or "Oh you're just a dudebro, that's why you're disagreeing with me". It can *easily* be used as a mental shortcut. Perhaps I dislike it because I watch the inside of my head *a lot* *, and can see how easily I could use it as a dismissive mental shortcut. Similarly why I dislike other fellow physicists that just go "Oh. *Snort* You're not a physicist, clearly you are mentally inferior and I shouldn't care what you think." (... This is, unfortunately, somewhat of a DESERVED stereotype, though I push against it where I can...) Maybe it's not as much of a risk for anyone else, or perhaps I'm just over-worrying as I look at my own thought processes, I do that.
(I am also probably very slightly cracked in the head.)

EDIT: I also apologize that my post kept growing/replying to folks, the way the board works made it hard for me to quote multiple people at once.
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Last edited by Felgraf on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:58 am; edited 3 times in total
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there have been people who have already said they would call women dudebro or that there are indeed female dudebros, but I'm getting lazy now, so someone else can look.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I guess my argument would be "Tough." when it comes to feeling like you're on eggshells. It's good you're concerned because you should be. We're talking about confronting a lot of deep-rooted bullshit, it isn't going to be easy or comfortable.

If you look far back enough, you'll see that I've been confronted about problematic behavior in this very thread. (Moooore than once, heh.) So no, of course women aren't above being problematic, we're talking about an entire systemic problem rooted in culture, nobody is immune.

I've come up to something similar when people talk about race. Being privileged in any way is uncomfortable when you care about other people. You get torn between guilt and compassion and it can generate some problems all on it's own. The trick is, it -isn't about you-. It just isn't. It's not a problem you will ever live through. You can only look at it from the outside. Any rational person isn't going to blame you for the problems you don't have... but it does become a problem when you go into their spaces and try to make it about you.

Now, that's a lot of typing, I just wanted to make my point clear. Important things to take away: I don't think you're a bad person for your feelings. I don't think you intended any harm. It just isn't about you. I appreciate that you're open to these ideas, and if you stick around you'll probably learn a lot. I know I have (and still am).
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