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2013-03-06: Victim Blaming
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Hydra



Joined: 25 Jan 2012
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't kick over hornets nests: actually good advice.

Maybe she can start up her own club where she can say whatever she wants.
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lol



Joined: 16 Nov 2012
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:

But yes she was trying to purposely rile them up. I referenced a comic earlier where she shouted to the crowd "F*** you, I do what I want."

The crowds reaction is a rude one, and that is most certainly true. However, she goes there, time after time. In fact, she trains and prepares for the resistance she is about to face. In this most recent one she bought a lacross stick to RETALIATE. So, she GOES into these situations, KNOWING she is going to encounter resistance.

So, Slick, seeing that the treatment of the crowd is what gets her upset, puts it forth as: "Shouldn't rile 'em up like that. You know how they get." Monique knew what she is expecting. Slick just pointed out the obvious.

No, she's not purposely trying to rile them up. Her statement refers to the fact that she should be able to express herself, regardless of what they think. It is not the same as "I wonder how much I can piss them off with this."

I really hate to bring this up, but there is a real life parallel for the comic. "She was asking for that rape when she came here dressed like that!" I understand the point you're trying to make. There is a dangerous reality that people need to be aware of, for their own safety. I agree.

The problem is, you(and Slick) were, unintentionally I guess, not addressing the people at fault.

That is the problem of Slick's statement. It reflects this larger sentiment from society that "Hey, that's just how they operate. Get over it." It excuses their behavior and puts the burden upon the victim, rather than addressing the harmful attitudes of the people actually at fault.
Miss Magenta wrote:

It's been shown that D-man shows up with a vegetable stand nearby Nique's performances, as I recall. So that means D-man is of course the one who is profiting.

This is important. It shows how the Patriarchy contributes to this. By allowing society to forever blame the victim, they give ammo to the aggressor.
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I really hate to bring this up, but there is a real life parallel for the comic. "She was asking for that rape when she came here dressed like that!" I understand the point you're trying to make. There is a dangerous reality that people need to be aware of, for their own safety. I agree.


I can understand why you wouldn't want to bring that up. That is escalation and this brings the subject into an area where, I think, it doesn't need to belong. Nobody is going to be advocating rape. Regardless, you can keep going on with that analogy, but I think you know deep down inside that it insinuates something negative about the people who disagree with you and will thus make the discussion far more heated than it needs to be.

In fact, I don't see it as an extension of rape at all. Monique's way of spouting her beliefs is confrontational. She is expecting confrontation and has demonstrated it. Her current situation of sharing her beliefs is not unlike that of a missionary, because they go out into the world and tell people what they believe. Of course they are going to meet people who don't share their beliefs. Combine that with an aggressive proselyting technique and you are going to have conflict, very much like the Westboro Baptist Church.

Is Monique bad like the Westboro Baptist Church? Of course not. And I think it is safe to say that we all agree with her on equality and that we should be able to live our lives the way we want it. But it has to be expected that when you are out there, in the face of an adversary, you are going to encounter resistance.

But in parting, because I do have to go to school, would we be as sympathetic as someone from the Westboro Baptist Church getting smacked with a tomato? I should hope not. But that is because our views are different from theirs.

Monique is no different than a missionary in this sense. And an aggressive and pushy one at that. Remember how we all loved Seymour when he mellowed out after touching that love-poisoned arrow? His message was the same, but it was delivered with love and respect.

I can't remember, but wasn't there a time where Seymour was the target of hecklers and tomato throwers? I'd like to see if there is a forum for that comic. The comments on there would paint a stark contrast, I am willing to bet, for what he espouses and that the tomato throwing was deserved and expected.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10262
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John in Tronna wrote:
Dogen wrote:
Or do I have the right to go to a Beiber concert and throw shit that I'm not aware of?


My gawd, I am so tempted to tell you to go ahead...

What if you have a pet monkey and train it to throw shit at Bieber standees and then bring it to a concert, does that still count? Should the monkey be made to wear ear plugs?
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 2433

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John in Tronna wrote:
I don't think that Slick here was being a Nice Guy, I think he was genuinely trying to be truly nice, and of course failing, b/c he missed the point.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I don't see where this comes from. Not only is Slick fairly regularly a Nice Guy (seriously, how much of his behaviour, since the very beginning of the comic, has been chosen specifically to get laid?), but he's been completely a Nice Guy for the last several strips.

Further, he has been doing the same thing to her as her audience. He fails to understand her in the same way they do. He makes the same thoughtless, whiny complaints that they do. He has literally purchased tomatoes and tried to join the audience. I have seen no reason whatsoever to trust Slick in this context.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alpha Aim wrote:

I think, if this was real, one side would've given out by now, either Nique would've left for somewhere else, or the hecklers would've left for a different coffee shop. It's surprising how they've faced each other for so long, yet doing the same thing.


i keep thinking that about the people who come to the forum just to complain about how the strip is now ALL FEMINISM ALL THE TIME.....
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
Monique's way of spouting her beliefs is confrontational. She is expecting confrontation and has demonstrated it. Her current situation of sharing her beliefs is not unlike that of a missionary, because they go out into the world and tell people what they believe. Of course they are going to meet people who don't share their beliefs. Combine that with an aggressive proselyting technique and you are going to have conflict, very much like the Westboro Baptist Church.


you do realize that not all missionaries are like the WBC, right? in fact, the WBC doesn't even qualify as missionaries, they really aren't trying to convert anyone - just collect lots of cash for being hateful.

but what you seem to be saying is that there should be no missionaries, because they are just going out telling people things they don't want to hear, trying to force a change people don't want to make, just because they (the missionaries) believe it will make them (the potential converts) better people. the missionaries should know better than to try to make people become better; they shouldn't bother them with messages that the people might find offensive. just like public health officials shouldn't be bothering people about the dangers of unprotected sex and smoking and driving while intoxicated. and environmentalists shouldn't harass people with warnings about how pollution can poison the air and water we need, and so maybe we should clean things up a bit. to say nothing of those idiot civil rights activists - of _course_ they deserved to be murdered, going down encouraging those black folk to do things like vote, and upsetting all the white folk by doing it!

in fact, what you seem to be saying is that if i find what you say offensive, i have every right to go throw tomatoes at you, and it is your fault for daring to offend me. i mean, i am right here on this earth where i am everyday - you should have known i would be here.

(fortunately for you, i like tomatoes too much to waste them by throwing them at people.)
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Wheel



Joined: 06 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but what you seem to be saying is that there should be no missionaries, because they are just going out telling people things they don't want to hear, trying to force a change people don't want to make, just because they (the missionaries) believe it will make them (the potential converts) better people. the missionaries should know better than to try to make people become better; they shouldn't bother them with messages that the people might find offensive. just like public health officials shouldn't be bothering people about the dangers of unprotected sex and smoking and driving while intoxicated. and environmentalists shouldn't harass people with warnings about how pollution can poison the air and water we need, and so maybe we should clean things up a bit. to say nothing of those idiot civil rights activists - of _course_ they deserved to be murdered, going down encouraging those black folk to do things like vote, and upsetting all the white folk by doing it!

Who said that again? And how do you manage to conflate religious proselytizers (which is actually a pretty good word for what Monique has become lately) and public health officials promulgating legitimate health guidelines?

You really leave the track after that and descend into hyperbole.
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
you do realize that not all missionaries are like the WBC, right? in fact, the WBC doesn't even qualify as missionaries, they really aren't trying to convert anyone - just collect lots of cash for being hateful.

but what you seem to be saying is that there should be no missionaries, because they are just going out telling people things they don't want to hear, trying to force a change people don't want to make, just because they (the missionaries) believe it will make them (the potential converts) better people.


That is not what I am saying at all. I am merely saying that when you espouse your beliefs to people who don't share them, naturally you should expect resistance. ESPECIALLY if you are becoming more and more confrontational like Monique is.

Quote:
the missionaries should know better than to try to make people become better; they shouldn't bother them with messages that the people might find offensive.


Is that entire paragraph sarcasm? You got to keep in mind, sarcasm doesn't really translate too well in writing, especially if I don't know your core beliefs. So, I am just going to respond to it as if it were meant seriously.

So, in response to your above quote -But isn't that what Monique is doing? And that is my point. If my version of what is better doesn't fit into what you believe, there is going to be conflict.

But we seem to be moving away from the topic, that being what was it that Slick did wrong. And my answer is nothing. He is right. Monique should have known that the crowd would have reacted that way. If you are a salesman trying to deal with an unresponsive crowd, you go somewhere else. I have already pointed out that Monique is playing to the same crowd, meaning she is trying to force them to accept her.

Do you go up and try to talk sense into a WBC member and try to get them to agree to a heterosexual lifestyle? Of course not, because you know the amount of resistance that would entail. In fact, it would become a war of insults and name calling. Monique knew that, Slick knew that, and he called her on it.

While this is probably not a part of the character that Tat means to show, this is how I interpret Monique at the moment. She is willingly challenging the anti-feminists. And someone stated earlier that it is a different kind of crazy to be able to keep that up. In fact, it is a certain sense of desperation. She wants the people to accept her views and switch to her mode of thinking.

And you seem to think that I condone the act of them throwing tomatoes. I don't. But she is taking it out on Slick when he points out to her that she is confronting them.
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Who said that again? And how do you manage to conflate religious proselytizers (which is actually a pretty good word for what Monique has become lately) and public health officials promulgating legitimate health guidelines?

You really leave the track after that and descend into hyperbole.


I think it is Mouse's style of debate. That seems to be the standard for quite a few people in here when there is someone stirring the pot. Not to mention, I am probably making a bigger deal out of this than I should. In fact, after this, I better call it quits on this discussion because I feel I have made my point. You go for the personal attack, get the other riled up, draw them into a state of defensiveness so that they eventually say something contradictory, and then it becomes a circus.

It takes the attention away from the topic and it meanders into things that weren't even part of the topic in the first place. It is the best way to lose sight of the actual disagreement in the first place: Was Slick wrong in saying that? And I still say "no."
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Wheel



Joined: 06 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not debate. That's conflation, deflection, hyperbole, exaggeration and a rather feeble attempt to set up a straw man.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:

It is the best way to lose sight of the actual disagreement in the first place: Was Slick wrong in saying that? And I still say "no."



That's because you, and many others who are so recently joined here, are a group of fucking morons who only see the inside of a colon when they open their eyes.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yo gibson and wheel sorry to interrupt your little circlejerk here but mouse is identifying the underlying premise that neither of you are owning up to: that you both think the crowd was justified in what you do.

protip: you don't get to squawk about how you "don't condone it" and then construct elaborate rhetorical contortions in which you go ahead and condone it by passing it off as just the nature of the world. well, you can, but you'd be hypocritical fuckstains for doing it.
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Wheel



Joined: 06 Apr 2012
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
yo gibson and wheel sorry to interrupt your little circlejerk here but mouse is identifying the underlying premise that neither of you are owning up to: that you both think the crowd was justified in what you do.

protip: you don't get to squawk about how you "don't condone it" and then construct elaborate rhetorical contortions in which you go ahead and condone it by passing it off as just the nature of the world. well, you can, but you'd be hypocritical fuckstains for doing it.


Yet another feeble minded attempt to derail and attack instead of debate. Protip? Please!

In fact, neither you or your friend can prove your bullshit assertion that anyone, ANYONE other than you two dimwits said anything like this:

that you both think the crowd was justified in what you do.

But that's the pathetic level of debate in your minds. Can we say 'strawman?' Why yes, we can. Oh, and notice the pronoun failure. Freudian slip anyone.

I've noticed you and your pathetic protege trying this bullshit with others but don't think your febrile minds are up to getting anywhere with me.
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Wheel



Joined: 06 Apr 2012
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey monkey! Do you suck your mother's dick with that mouth?
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