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When is hate okay?
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10626
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to preserve my right to hate. If someone did something horrible to my family, I would hate them. I would want to hate them. And I'm not talking about in the immediate aftermath, I'm talking about down the road, the kind of feeling where you want to see them dead-- or worse--I don't think people who have been purposefully and significantly wronged by another should be denied that right.

I used to think I hated a lot of people, but realized I was generally just really angry. The list of people I actually hate, amongst the thousands I know, is probably less than five. Or humanity as a whole, misanthropy is a bitch to fight off.

BUT BUT BUT, feeling an emotion isn't the same as taking action. I believe that if you truly hate someone you should disassociate yourself from them as much as possible.

Like my ex-boss at the ski resort. He acted like my friend, I literately risked my life for him (repairing and maintaining ski lifts in winter is seriously dangerous work, not even including the snowmobiling) and I can honestly say, without going into the whole story again (it's somewhere in my 8600 odd posts) that he taught me new levels of betrayal. I wish for only horrible things to happen to him. If his testicular cancer came back I would, smile, laugh, and hope that he suffers greatly.

But I never would act upon it. Like I said, disassociation is the best path. Despite all my hatred, I still don't have a right to act on it.

HOWEVER, i can call someone dudebro, fuckwad, stupid piece of dumb shit, etc, without hating in the slightest. I tend to pity those types, or I'm angry at them, but it's not hate.

Using hateful language isn't quite the same as hating. You can call it school yard mentality, but fuck that noise-- I have never once professed to be coming at anyone from a moral high ground. These aren't formal arguments with rules. I believe that there are times when punitive justice is okay (that's why I support the death penalty). So are there times when it's ok to be hurtful--don't say sexists bullshit and I won't call you a dudebro.

Smooshie is trying to paint himself as a pillar of moral virtue but refuses to answer, or only selectively answer, direct questions. He doesn't define hate nor will he give justifications as to why it's wrong. You can't start asking when it is okay to hate unless you are going be willing to explain why it is not okay to hate in the first place.

Also, I still stand by my first post, which he has not once completely and directly refuted or disproved. Instead he's engaged in a campaign of obfuscation to make us "feel bad" for calling him the dudebro that he is.

BTW this was all posted with no hate Very Happy
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I won't get into "when is it justifiable to hate." Hate is no more justifiable than love; both simply are, and they are both opposite sides of the same coin. They are no more justifiable than a mountain.

Our acts are what we can justify. I think you and I are in agreement on that, Darq. You seem to come at it from a position of responsibility: "If I admit to myself what I am doing and accept the consequences, then my actions are as justified as they need to be." I come at it from a more pragmatic point of view: "Justification is in terms of what is sought or to be accomplished."

I believe we've both stated our respective position clearly, yes?
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair nuff', I was trying to eliminate the room or chance for hypocrisy.

Also, there's still this:

Quote:
Smooshie is trying to paint himself as a pillar of moral virtue but refuses to answer, or only selectively answer, direct questions. He doesn't define hate nor will he give justifications as to why it's wrong. You can't start asking when it is okay to hate unless you are going be willing to explain why it is not okay to hate in the first place.

Also, I still stand by my first post, which he has not once completely and directly refuted or disproved. Instead he's engaged in a campaign of obfuscation to make us "feel bad" for calling him the dudebro that he is.

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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno. There are people who hate blacks, and I'm not sure it's entirely possible to control the effects of hate which has been codified into law, or when an individual is unaware of the subconscious influnce their emotions have on their behavior. For instance, a sheriff (to be trite) might hate blacks but be steadfast in his belief in equality before the law, and nonetheless arrest more blacks for lesser crimes and/or charge them with greater crimes under similar circumstances. Which is why stereotypes are dangerous; more dangerous than hating your boss (who no one would expect you to be unbiased toward), or any single individual. In this example it's the unexamined nature of hate (stereotypes about race being inherently irrational) that leads to the negative consequence. Thus, I think hate can be justified (a person does something dangerous without regard for your safety, intentionally harms you or a loved one, etc) and unjustified (a person belongs to a class which you hate for irrational reasons).
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it easier to understand how one can hate a particular person than how one can hate a vast group of people based on the color or shape of their bodies. For myself, if I must hate, then I would rather hate persons than hate people.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like to think I don't have any prejudices, but it's unlikely. Which is why examining your own behavior is important, if not always fun.
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like to quote my father, when it comes to prejudice:
Dad wrote:
I will tolerate anything except intolerance.

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Vox Raucus



Joined: 31 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You forgot the punchline of that joke. It goes, "the only people I can't tolerate are the intolerant and the irish."
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
I like to think I don't have any prejudices, but it's unlikely.

Freud, Marx, and every single postmodern philosopher would like to have a word with you. Laughing
Everything you do and everything you create is inextricably tainted by bias and an agenda. You can't be totally unbiased, even if you have no apparent social biases. Besides, being totally neutral is boring! Razz

And hey, Darq, I don't have the time to respond to everything right now, sheesh. Razz
I never claimed to be a pillar of anything. I might want you to think highly of me on some subconscious level, but I'm honestly just here 'cause it's interesting and it kills what little time I have in between bouts of studying for my midterms. Perhaps my questions are posed in such a way that it appears that I imagine myself to be of a higher moral standing than any of you, but that's simply not true. I'm just asking questions, and I'm obviously unable to reach deep down and tell you what my subconscious motivations are, lol

EDIT: to that end, I would say that I did not assert that hate or derogatory language et al. are necessarily bad. Perhaps it's all my fault for being unclear; the answer can go in so many different directions based on your beliefs that I think it's a bit strange to pin the ideology behind the question as one believing that these things are anything besides hurtful. One might assume that hurtful things are bad, but... are they really? I'm sure at least one living person doesn't think so. Besides that, even if my questions were phrased in such a way that it was clearly biased, it's not terribly difficult to cut through the fog. You managed to do so, I think. You've also said some pretty cool things, and I actually agree with a few of your assertions, but it'd be boring if I completely agreed with you.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I was referring to prejudices in the context of social interaction, not cognitive biases (of which I'm aware... I've even done research on several). What I meant was that I like to think I don't irrationally dislike any social group, but I'm sure that I do, to some degree (people who smoke at bus stops *shakes fist*).
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:40 am    Post subject: What if you let go your identity one day, what would you do? Reply with quote

Hatred is an emotion borne of ego and identity.

People have a tendency to hate what they don't understand; what they can't relate to; what they have no control over; or anything that threatens their identity or ego.


But it's funny, you can play the victim card as long as you want if you have been wronged by society in some way.

I wonder what would happen in a society where all people strive to be victims.


Would we, at long last, have reached a state of acceptable tolerance?
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject: I hate emotes. Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
Everything you do and everything you create is inextricably tainted by bias and an agenda. You can't be totally unbiased, even if you have no apparent social biases. Besides, being totally neutral is boring! Razz


ohohohoho

You seem to be be a fellow that works in absolutes.

You spew trivial explanations to nontrivial questions.

Tell me Mr. White and Black, if everything you do is tainted by bias in order to support an hidden agenda, what would happen if that agenda was in fact a goal to become unbiased?

Yes, let's just ignore the many generations of philosophers, scientists, and mathematicians trying to achieve that very goal.

One would think that the progress we have achieved by the time of this modern era is proof enough of that determination to find the ultimate truth of the universe.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going by this definition for justified - "Having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason"
And this definition of hate - "feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone)"

There are legitimate reasons to passionately dislike someone, or something. It isn't good to be consumed by hate, but I think it's unavoidable. I try to be chill and not stress, but there are things I hate. I try to keep actions and people separate. I don't think that's really possible, but trying helps me anyhow.

If you're talking about acting hatefully, it really depends on what someone wants to accomplish.
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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Location: NYC

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hogwash, nothing's absolute Laughing
If you're trying to subvert my assertions, you're not doing a very good job. No matter how altruistic the intention, the fact that it exists is the entire point here. An agenda is an agenda. Besides, that's a clear and immediate motivation, which is to say that it is conscious, and not really what I was talking about anyway.

If you have such a conflict, anyway, that would surely end with some sort of emotional or psychological turmoil.

The bias of math and science is that it assumes that the universe as we perceive it (through ever-expanding means) is actually that way. Oh, and there's a huge bias towards rationality, of course. The goal of the sciences and philosophy is to know, and removing biases is a secondary goal, but the removal of biases in this case is really the removal of human error and disorder. For philosophy, being unbiased has been recognized as being impossible for a very long time. The best we can do is a refusal to make value-judgements and an acknowledgement of those biases. In science, even base particles look different, depending on what you're using to observe them. If there were no bias, there would be no means to discover anything because what could you possibly use to determine the absolute truth of things? You need to arbitrarily declare something normal in order to judge other things, or else everything kind of falls apart. Let us extend this to the mind: if you had no way of perceiving and understanding things, you wouldn't do anything, ever. Even if your bias is to become unbiased, you've still got a motivation to do.
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: I hate emotes. Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Smooshie wrote:
Everything you do and everything you create is inextricably tainted by bias and an agenda. You can't be totally unbiased, even if you have no apparent social biases. Besides, being totally neutral is boring! Razz


ohohohoho

You seem to be be a fellow that works in absolutes.

You spew trivial explanations to nontrivial questions.

Tell me Mr. White and Black, if everything you do is tainted by bias in order to support an hidden agenda, what would happen if that agenda was in fact a goal to become unbiased?

Yes, let's just ignore the many generations of philosophers, scientists, and mathematicians trying to achieve that very goal.

One would think that the progress we have achieved by the time of this modern era is proof enough of that determination to find the ultimate truth of the universe.



Quote:
Hatred is an emotion borne of ego and identity.


That seems like a pretty *absolute* definition.

Secondly, uh, yeah, actually, scientists have biases, even if they try hard to become unbiased. That's why they still take care to design experiments to eliminate bias as much as possible, and that's one of the reasons we have peer review and people getting experiments that are just "Yeah, we got this to work too" published: Because observation bias is a ARSE. And yes, even after generations of trying to achieve nonbias, there's still difficulty.

I mean, fark, look at the issues they had getting Big Bang theory to gain acceptance when it first came around. Even physicists can be cranky old men who refuse to see change.
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