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I, for one, will welcome our future robotic overlords
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once they start beating us at Go, then we can start worrying. For right now, it's still too much for them.
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dro wrote:
The world's computing power passed a single human brain in 2011. Last year it passed 3 brains.

The problem with that statement is that "computing power" is a very poor measure of what human intelligence does. Computing power measures how many machine instructions can be processed in a second, and then tries to equate that with synaptic firing. Human intelligence does far more than simply process a limited command set repeatedly, though. Human intelligence is capable of nuance, of insight, of awareness. These phenomena may--or may not, we don't really know, yet--simply be emergent phenomena based on recurring, self-similar patterns of neural firing, but we have had very little success in replicating them in any discrete-state machines--the things that actually are measured by the index of computing power. (We've actually had better success, as measured by systems' performances of specific goal-oriented tasks, at emulating awareness on analog neural nets. As far as I know, though, nuance and insight still haven't been effectively emulated to any degree at all.)

Darqcyde wrote:
Once they start beating us at Go, then we can start worrying. For right now, it's still too much for them.
Agreed. There's that issue of nuance, again. The concept of "influence," as every Go dan will tell you, is crucial to mastering Go. And, yet, while we can develop some fairly sophisticated machine modeling with the ability to predict territorial claims in Go based on any given pattern of stones, no machine intelligence has yet to grasp (or model, if you prefer) the entirety of influence well enough to even achieve a 1-dan rating. The Go app I have on my phone, for example, regularly continues to place stones in territory that has--to my eye--long since been settled, and even into territories where it is blatantly impossible for the app to form two eyes.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitflipper wrote:
There's that issue of nuance, again. The concept of "influence," as every Go dan will tell you, is crucial to mastering Go. And, yet, while we can develop some fairly sophisticated machine modeling with the ability to predict territorial claims in Go based on any given pattern of stones, no machine intelligence has yet to grasp (or model, if you prefer) the entirety of influence well enough to even achieve a 1-dan rating. The Go app I have on my phone, for example, regularly continues to place stones in territory that has--to my eye--long since been settled, and even into territories where it is blatantly impossible for the app to form two eyes.

Your information here is a few years out of date. The Zen line of programs has recently achieved a stable 6-dan ranking on kgs (which would probably be a real-life 5d-6d in Japan or US, or 4d in China or Europe).

It could be anywhere from 3-20 years before computer go passes humans, but it is inevitable.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: ...no toasters were involved. That's the news for toaste Reply with quote

Usagi Miyamoto wrote:
that 90% of our brains that we thought wasn't being used for much is pretty important after all.

This was never really a thing anyway. You may not be using 100% of your brain all of the time, but you use 100% of it at different times. Between vision (which uses huge swaths of the occipital, temporal, and parietal lobes), motor movement (which is a big part of the frontal lobe, the cerebellum, and parts of the parietal and temporal lobes), memory (every single neuron), and language (frontal, temporal, small slice of parietal) you've pretty much accounted for a huge portion of the neocortex. Emotions, smell, autonomic functions and proprioception account for huge chunks as well (the underside of the brain, brainstem, cerebellum). There's just not a part that doesn't do something. Very Happy
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Dro



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitflipper wrote:
Dro wrote:
The world's computing power passed a single human brain in 2011. Last year it passed 3 brains.

The problem with that statement is that "computing power" is a very poor measure of what human intelligence does. Computing power measures how many machine instructions can be processed in a second, and then tries to equate that with synaptic firing. Human intelligence does far more than simply process a limited command set repeatedly, though. Human intelligence is capable of nuance, of insight, of awareness.


I think you are making a few leaps here. Human intelligence may do more than process a limited command set repeatedly, but neurons process a very limited command set repeatedly. Any computer can be made into a reasonable facsimile of a neuron. How we go from a simple neuron to intelligence is still a mystery, but going from a simple cpu to intelligence is no greater hurdle.
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dro wrote:
How we go from a simple neuron to intelligence is still a mystery, but going from a simple cpu to intelligence is no greater hurdle.

That may be true, but, if we can't clear the first hurdle, how can we clear the second? Even if it is no more difficult to emulate consciousness than to explain it, why do we believe we are capable of doing either? It's a sort of "open the box using the key locked within it" puzzle, after all.*

-------

*I'm playing a bit of Devil's Advocate, here, btw; I do believe we will one day be capable of creating a strong AI. I simply believe that day is much further in the future than futurists like Dr. Sagan and Dr. Vinge have predicted it to be, because I believe they are using too simplistic a measure for what is required to create a self-aware consciousness. I sort of straddle the line between the reductionist (cf. Daniel Dennet, among others) and the wholistic (cf. John Searle, et al.) camps of consciousness. I do believe consciousness can ultimately be reduced to simple, understandable phenomena which can be modeled, but I also believe that we do not yet know the totality of those phenomena; it's not just a matter of connections, or we'd be able to model it, by now. There is also--probably--something we have yet to grasp about the patterns and dynamics of the connections, that is also necessary in order to give rise to consciousness.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
package Sandvich;

public class SandvichRuntime {
   public static void main (String[] args){
      SandvichArray x = new SandvichArray();
      int y = 0;
      while(y < 50){
         Sandvich j = new Sandvich(x.randMeat(), x.randDressing(), x.randBread(), x.randCheese(), x.randVeggies());
         j.Assemble();
         System.out.println(j.Serve());
         y++;
         j=null;
      }
      
      
   }
}


Resulted in:

A delicious Grilled Salmon sandwich on Rye and topped with fresh Jalapenos, Swiss, and smothered in Dijon Mustard.
A delicious Grilled Salmon sandwich on Pumpernickel and topped with fresh Carrots, Provolone, and smothered in Mustard.
A delicious Tuna Salad sandwich on French Roll and topped with fresh Carrots, Gouda, and smothered in Ranch.
A delicious Egg Salad sandwich on Flatbread and topped with fresh Olives, Cheddar, and smothered in Sauerkraut.
A delicious Egg Salad sandwich on Rye and topped with fresh Tomatoes, Goat Cheese, and smothered in Sauerkraut.
A delicious Egg Salad sandwich on Matzo and topped with fresh Cucumbers, Provolone, and smothered in Mayo.
A delicious Pulled Pork sandwich on White and topped with fresh Cucumbers, Provolone, and smothered in Mustard.
A delicious Turkey sandwich on White and topped with fresh Celery, Gouda, and smothered in Dijon Mustard.
A delicious Turkey sandwich on Rye and topped with fresh Lettuce, Gouda, and smothered in Tomato Sauce.
A delicious Ham sandwich on White and topped with fresh Cucumbers, Cheddar, and smothered in Mustard.
A delicious Egg Salad sandwich on Matzo and topped with fresh Bell Peppers, Camembert, and smothered in Ketchup.
A delicious Chicken Breast sandwich on White and topped with fresh Carrots, Edam, and smothered in Ketchup.
A delicious Pulled Pork sandwich on Flatbread and topped with fresh Parsnips, Swiss, and smothered in Mustard.
A delicious Tuna Salad sandwich on Whole Wheat and topped with fresh Parsnips, Provolone, and smothered in Mustard.
A delicious Turkey sandwich on Boston Brown and topped with fresh Celery, Emmental, and smothered in Sauerkraut.
A delicious Ham sandwich on Flatbread and topped with fresh Bell Peppers, Cheddar, and smothered in Guacamole.
A delicious Roast Beef sandwich on Matzo and topped with fresh Lettuce, Swiss, and smothered in Ketchup.
A delicious Tuna Salad sandwich on Boston Brown and topped with fresh Tomatoes, Cheddar, and smothered in Pesto.
A delicious Roast Beef sandwich on Rye and topped with fresh Olives, Gouda, and smothered in Guacamole.
A delicious Turkey sandwich on Rye and topped with fresh Olives, Parmesan, and smothered in Tomato Sauce.
A delicious Grilled Salmon sandwich on Whole Wheat and topped with fresh Tomatoes, Cheddar, and smothered in Mayo.
A delicious Turkey sandwich on Boston Brown and topped with fresh Bell Peppers, Emmental, and smothered in Tomato Sauce.
A delicious Bacon sandwich on Sourdough and topped with fresh Olives, Edam, and smothered in Guacamole.
A delicious Tuna Salad sandwich on French Roll and topped with fresh Celery, Parmesan, and smothered in Tomato Sauce.
A delicious Grilled Salmon sandwich on Boston Brown and topped with fresh Lettuce, Swiss, and smothered in Mayo.
A delicious Egg Salad sandwich on Boston Brown and topped with fresh Carrots, Cheddar, and smothered in Ketchup.
A delicious Chicken Breast sandwich on Pumpernickel and topped with fresh Onions, Camembert, and smothered in Ketchup.
A delicious Chicken Breast sandwich on Sourdough and topped with fresh Cucumbers, Cheddar, and smothered in Mayo.
A delicious Turkey sandwich on Rye and topped with fresh Parsnips, Camembert, and smothered in Pesto.
A delicious Roast Beef sandwich on Flatbread and topped with fresh Lettuce, Parmesan, and smothered in Mayo.
A delicious Tuna Salad sandwich on Pumpernickel and topped with fresh Lettuce, Parmesan, and smothered in Mustard.
A delicious Egg Salad sandwich on Rye and topped with fresh Carrots, Gouda, and smothered in Sauerkraut.
A delicious Chicken Breast sandwich on Sourdough and topped with fresh Parsnips, Parmesan, and smothered in Dijon Mustard.
A delicious Roast Beef sandwich on White and topped with fresh Cucumbers, Provolone, and smothered in Guacamole.
A delicious Tuna Salad sandwich on White and topped with fresh Lettuce, Goat Cheese, and smothered in Butter.
A delicious Ham sandwich on Boston Brown and topped with fresh Lettuce, Cheddar, and smothered in Dijon Mustard.
A delicious Roast Beef sandwich on French Roll and topped with fresh Lettuce, Provolone, and smothered in Tomato Sauce.
A delicious Turkey sandwich on French Roll and topped with fresh Carrots, Camembert, and smothered in Pesto.
A delicious Tuna Salad sandwich on Rye and topped with fresh Carrots, Edam, and smothered in Sauerkraut.
A delicious Turkey sandwich on Pumpernickel and topped with fresh Carrots, Mozzarella, and smothered in Butter.
A delicious Grilled Salmon sandwich on White and topped with fresh Celery, Goat Cheese, and smothered in Sauerkraut.
A delicious Tuna Salad sandwich on Sourdough and topped with fresh Celery, Cheddar, and smothered in Butter.
A delicious Grilled Salmon sandwich on Pumpernickel and topped with fresh Parsnips, Emmental, and smothered in Tomato Sauce.
A delicious Chicken Breast sandwich on Rye and topped with fresh Lettuce, Provolone, and smothered in Ranch.
A delicious Chicken Breast sandwich on Boston Brown and topped with fresh Carrots, Edam, and smothered in Ranch.
A delicious Bacon sandwich on Flatbread and topped with fresh Lettuce, Goat Cheese, and smothered in Ketchup.
A delicious Ham sandwich on French Roll and topped with fresh Cucumbers, Emmental, and smothered in Dijon Mustard.
A delicious Ham sandwich on 7 Grain and topped with fresh Lettuce, Emmental, and smothered in Tomato Sauce.
A delicious Ham sandwich on Matzo and topped with fresh Celery, Edam, and smothered in Pesto.
A delicious Tuna Salad sandwich on Sourdough and topped with fresh Cucumbers, Gouda, and smothered in Ketchup.

Me: 1, Skynet: 0.
(fun fact: This script can output up to 100,000 unique sandwich combinations. Try one for lunch!)
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Once they start beating us at Go, then we can start worrying. For right now, it's still too much for them.

I disagree. They said the same thing about chess.

Right now a programmer would have to be extraordinarily clever to make a computer program that could beat the best human at Go, certainly (this was also true of chess, at the time, though it's trickier to quantify an advantage in Go), and some of the deeper AI concepts might make some progress, but suppose we had enough processing power to simply map out a significant portion of the game tree and play a perfect game every time. It's extraordinarily expensive, computationally, but not necessarily impossible, and no reasonable person considers brute-force number crunching to be intelligent in any meaningful sense.
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
Right now a programmer would have to be extraordinarily clever to make a computer program that could beat the best human at Go, but suppose we had enough processing power to simply map out the entire game tree and play a perfect game every time. It's extremely expensive, computationally, but not necessarily impossible, and no reasonable person considers brute-force number crunching to be intelligent in any meaningful sense.

This is true, and I haven't been able to find anything on the structure, algorythms, or heurystics of the Zen Go programs mentioned by Sojobo to determine whether they are AIs or simpler classes of specific problem solvers. Looking at the list of hardware required to run them, I'm suspecting that they're mini-max convergence engines coupled with a solid brute-force look-ahead for handling individual josekis. But the overall controller has some intriguing behaviors, according to the articles I've read discussing matches between Zen and high-ranking human players. In particular, it's willing to concede losses in territory for advantageous positions elsewhere on the board--a surprising behavior very much akin to the concept of "influence." Zen also apparently strives for balance in its attacks and defense play. All of which makes Zen something about which I'm quite keen to learn the grittier details.

But, even if Zen is a weak AI, the step from weak AIs to strong AIs remains huge. A 9-dan Go engine that can't complete sequences, learn other information, or recognize patterns unrelated to a Go board, while impressive, is still a very far cry from matching the performance of even bestial intelligence, let alone human intelligence. It may be a step in the right direction, but, as Rants points out, it's only a small step, at best.
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Usagi Miyamoto



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:40 am    Post subject: ...and now the news for wombats. No wombats were involved... Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Usagi Miyamoto wrote:
that 90% of our brains that we thought wasn't being used for much is pretty important after all.

This was never really a thing anyway.

Yes, I know, in this case it was a too-subtle reference to the rough ratio of glial cells to neurons.
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Mr Gary



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wanted to go record as saying that whilst I do not understand this conversation I *do* love it.

Precis whilst drunk & tired: are we smart enough to build cognition engines smarter than we are?
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Once they start beating us at Go, then we can start worrying. For right now, it's still too much for them.

I disagree. They said the same thing about chess.

Right now a programmer would have to be extraordinarily clever to make a computer program that could beat the best human at Go, certainly (this was also true of chess, at the time, though it's trickier to quantify an advantage in Go), and some of the deeper AI concepts might make some progress, but suppose we had enough processing power to simply map out a significant portion of the game tree and play a perfect game every time. It's extraordinarily expensive, computationally, but not necessarily impossible, and no reasonable person considers brute-force number crunching to be intelligent in any meaningful sense.


Right. That is what we all thought right before the robots took over.

not that I think Go is the one that will usher in the end times but going "hah, we remain as ever superior to these mere machines" is kinda naÔve and optimistic.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I am not paranoid but that article is kinda unnerving.

Quote:
All of the following numbers should be considered with caution: seemingly-minor changes to the rules of a game can change the numbers (which are often rough estimates anyway) by tremendous factors, which might easily be much greater than the numbers shown.


CAUTION!
TREMENDOUS FACTORS!!
MIGHT EASILY BE MUCH GREATER!!!
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Gary wrote:
Precis whilst drunk & tired: are we smart enough to build cognition engines smarter than we are?

Collectively, maybe.

Snorri wrote:

not that I think Go is the one that will usher in the end times but going "hah, we remain as ever superior to these mere machines" is kinda naÔve and optimistic.


uh

a modern supercomputer running our best AIs is about as intelligent as an ant

also an AI won't harbor ill will against us unless we give it motivations that result in such

the only thing to fear here is human stupidity, as always
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:27 am    Post subject: Re: ...and now the news for wombats. No wombats were involve Reply with quote

Usagi Miyamoto wrote:
Dogen wrote:
Usagi Miyamoto wrote:
that 90% of our brains that we thought wasn't being used for much is pretty important after all.

This was never really a thing anyway.

Yes, I know, in this case it was a too-subtle reference to the rough ratio of glial cells to neurons.

Ahh, haha... sorry about that. I did miss it. I wasn't really thinking about the article... I'm bitter, and I really hate science reporting. Saying that "many neuroscientists essentially ignore glia," is the catchphrase of any reporter writing about research involving them... even though it's about as accurate as claiming someone just invented the first wireless network connection. It was true thirty years ago, but has become progressively less so every year since the early 80s, when they discovered glia directed the migration of neurons in developing brains. It's also kind of shitty to give short shrift to their role in uptake of glutamate ("mop up extra neurotransmitters"), without which we'd all die from excitotoxicity. *mutters* science reporters... *mutters*
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