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Religion, Atheism, What-Have-You
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 2786
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitflipper wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
bitflipper wrote:
Felgraf wrote:
Heretical Rants wrote:
I'm still trying to decide what sort of extra mechanisms I'm going to put on this toaster.


Well, CLEARLY, you need to make it able to talk, so that it can get all existential and frustrated when stuck with the only surviving member of the human race, and he, well, doesn't like toast.

Redacted


What is the purpose of this joke? Are you trying to be ironic, like when you made that gay joke?

Do you honestly think that joke was funny?
I did; it seems I was mistaken. Redacting it.


You'd do better to stop making those kinds of jokes till you get the nuance of it. Thanks for accepting the calling out, though.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 2430

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitflipper wrote:
Upon this, we agree; as phrased, this requires a god to, first, exist, and to, second, demonstrate moral behavior. To make things a little clear, I've changed the phrasing to go with what can materially be presented in argument as evidence of a deity's moral behavior--readings from the scriptures upheld by the deity's adherents.

I noticed that you changed the phrasing. I pointed out exactly why it didn't matter, because a god convincing you that it exists remains a necessary logically prior step to that god deserving your worship, even if you avoid mentioning it directly.

You have admitted again that you agree exactly with my logic, and the change in phrasing you have made in no way impacts that logic.

bitflipper wrote:
And here is where you take the step too far, trying to constrain faith with logic. And, incidentally, making a claim in the process that you cannot support.

I claim that no god has demonstrated his existence to you. I so claim because your body of posts has convinced me of it. It is reasoned from your terminology and phrasing when talking about gods. If I was wrong about this, you could have corrected me by simply stating that I was wrong. You have not so stated, because I am in fact correct.

bitflipper wrote:
And, again, this same difficulty. I tell you gently and calmly, Sojobo: you do not know what I believe, what I do not believe, nor what I will do or not do. You haven't even asked. And each time you act based on that apparent belief of yours that you have any knowledge of my own beliefs, you raise an immediate impediment to understanding, and no progress can be hoped to be made beyond that point.

To whinge that I cannot prove you don't believe in god when you know I am correct that you don't believe in god is the "impediment" to our conversation. You could have bypassed our entire argument, up to and including this post, by simply admitting what you believed. That's the "concession" that would have moved the conversation forward.
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stating that I am Taoist would have avoided this whole argument? I find that claim to be rather dubious, as all that was said of my beliefs was what you claimed to "know" about my beliefs. And, since you seem to so cherish the idea that you know my beliefs better than I, then this is where this discussion must end. Believe what you like; it doesn't change my beliefs nor my actions no matter how much you try to dump your fantasies on me.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*yawn* *sigh* *grumble*
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone call the engineer and tell him we've got a serious derailment here.

Simon Amstell hasn't been discussed in ages.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitflipper wrote:
Stating that I am Taoist would have avoided this whole argument?

Does stating that you are a Taoist either: 1) admit that you do not believe in a god or: 2) refute it by stating that you do believe in a god? No? Then, no, of course it wouldn't have avoided anything. You have put an awful lot of effort into misunderstanding this point!

bitflipper wrote:
And, since you seem to so cherish the idea that you know my beliefs better than I, then this is where this discussion must end.

I have directly contradicted the idea you are claiming I cherish in each of the last three posts I have directed your way. The discussion isn't ending here, it ended quite some time ago, because you have just been mindlessly repeating the same falsehood every post instead of actually engaging with me.

*shrugs*
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Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Finnegan wrote:
Arkhron wrote:
But some circumstancies have forged me strong in the atheist hardline (no gods, no ghosts, no supernatural beings of any kind, no things like magic or faeries or similar).


that would be pretty amusing to find the existence of god so irrational that even the possibility is beyond belief and yet totally believe that ghosts and faeries and magic are real. Very Happy


There are people who do actually believe in magical entities and supernatural happenings while not believing in a montheistic god. Lots in the neo-pagan communities.


right. I guess I see atheists as being rationally minded and that is why I thought it was sorta ridiculous to think that someone who couldn't rationalize god would believe in the supernatural.

I don't believe in fairies
But I'm not so sure about vampires
Building up their empires
Made of blood and bone and fire

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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, there's lots of other reasons people end up not believing in any sort of deities

some people just never thought about theism/were never exposed to it and just ended up being atheists by default

some people have (possibly irrational) beliefs that would conflict with a belief in a god/gods and default to those instead

some people just go with believing whatever everyone else around them believes

etc


also, simply not buying into one faulty belief does not automatically protect you from all others
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



anyway, let's get this thread back on track
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmm... I dont want to sound like a politician in campaign but I do believe in some things, like Love, Hope, Hate, Friendship...

It may sound ridiculous or even contradictory with I said before but I prefer to believe in a kind of inmaterial bond between two persons than a chemical bond based in serotonine, oxicitoxine and primal instincts of specie perpetuation.

Yup, it may be seen as a fissure in my "rationale armor" but... well, that is exactly what a belief is ^^U

(pre emptive aclaration, I am not talking about "sentient forces". I think all time about relationships between people)
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Righto.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



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Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a belief system is healthy and maybe necessary in order to be ... tranquil? I'm coming out of a low point in my life and have lost faith in pretty much everything and it is not pleasant. If someone is happier feeling loved by god or safe in their worldview then that's fucking fantastic! I wish I could find that kind of serenity. As long as you don't forcibly project your beliefs on others, I say do what you are happiest doing. I didn't mean to imply that someone with an abstract belief system isn't rational. I think it is rational to find a way to be at peace with what is going on around you.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Choo-choo!
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that was a little creepy... who is that?
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