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Rationally speaking... 4/2
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Not much, I admit again.


Imagine a world where rape occurs frequently. Imagine someone walking up to people who have experienced it, or know of people who have experienced it. Imagine that person constantly bringing up the perpetrators of the rape and shouting, "Rape sounds so awful I don't think anyone would commit it. So you're all liars and whiners who want to castrate men!"

How do you think the other people would feel about this person?

rothide wrote:

But with the way your describing it and wondering how I could think his way, is it like some People go, "oh look, it's rape oclock, after this I gotta do some shopping."


Some people think it's normal. They treat it as a normal thing, and they don't give a shit. And then the victim, if they can't tell anyone, has to go around acting all normal.

If the perpetrator is a pillar of the community, all the better - because everyone tells the victim what a nice person the rapist is. They're so awesome, and you're so lucky to know them!

Imagine having to go by the crossing guard every day on your way to school after he molested you. And you're just a little kid, maybe 8 years old. Can't tell anyone, but you still have to go near him every day. Everyone else gets to feel safe crossing the street, but not you. (This didn't happen to me, but it did happen. Same guy, multiple kids, no one can do anything about it except hope he dies.)

Or imagine that you are blind, someone rapes you, and you tell the authorities. They decide that because you are blind, you wouldn't have any idea sex was going on, so they're not going to bother.

And don't forget that raping of men is still considered impossible, at least in some circumstances. That certainly does boys and men no favors, and I really don't know how accurate our statistics are regarding rape of men.

And let's not forget how mentally disabled adults and children are raped, people whom we tend to view as children and in need of protection.

Add to all that the flippant comments about rape people make. Rape is so funny. This or that woman clearly needs to get raped. Oh, I'd love to rape her. I mean, it's hilarious - the culture at large certainly thinks so.

You think it just sounds so weird and nonchalant, but it happens like that sometimes. The world is full of evil shit, and ignoring the stuff that doesn't sound sensible only makes it worse.

rothide wrote:

I would think that a history of abuse would be there, either given to the person, or the person doing it to others. Or a hatred of women, that you want to hurt them as much as possible.


Yeah. These can also be involved. Rape is about power. One of the more powerful things about it is how hard it is to talk about it, and how much people don't want to hear about it. If your culture lacks good language for talking about sex, then it'll be nigh on impossible to even explain what you went through.

If the authorities do little to enforce existing laws about rape, very likely you will at least hesitate to report it. You may want to avoid backlash if you've seen how other people coming forward are treated.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Rothide wrote:

Well, Christianity, even though men are considered the head of the household, women hold power as well, they are our counselors, providing the information that we need to come with a decision. Their important to us. I believe they are equal in fact, God used women as Judges, Prophets, and they took care of the property and decided the business deals. In pretty much everything they were equal. Thus I feel they should be treated as equals today as well.

That's kinda where I get women should be treated equally, it may explain a lot of things though. I know my religion gets a lot of flak for the rules others get from their interpretation of our religious book. But just like there are those certain Baptists, there are normal people too.


FYI: You and your wife happily, willingly interact with each other in the roles which have been prescribed to you. Many people have no need or wish to fill those roles, and in fact are very happy doing other things. If you are happy, awesome. But you have to understand that your life is not the only life.

Consider this also: FLDS girls are pretty much taught that they are worthless, and that their only hope of surviving is to be totally subservient to men. They aren't to have opinions or thoughts of their own. Men have different roles, but they generally believe they are doing good because they steward the women. If the men doing the stewarding are abusive, what are the girls supposed to do about it? Their faith tells them to do anything and everything that they are told.


Well that is a fringe religious group too, so fringe we usually don't believe they are truly saved or believe in the same lord we do. They are like the christian version of let's castrate all men so they can't rape anymore feminists


Tell me why I should differentiate between your religion and what extremists practice? (This is not a mocking question. I would like your best rational answer.)
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Not much, I admit again.


Imagine a world where rape occurs frequently. Imagine someone walking up to people who have experienced it, or know of people who have experienced it. Imagine that person constantly bringing up the perpetrators of the rape and shouting, "Rape sounds so awful I don't think anyone would commit it. So you're all liars and whiners who want to castrate men!"

How do you think the other people would feel about this person?

rothide wrote:

But with the way your describing it and wondering how I could think his way, is it like some People go, "oh look, it's rape oclock, after this I gotta do some shopping."


Some people think it's normal. They treat it as a normal thing, and they don't give a shit. And then the victim, if they can't tell anyone, has to go around acting all normal.

If the perpetrator is a pillar of the community, all the better - because everyone tells the victim what a nice person the rapist is. They're so awesome, and you're so lucky to know them!

Imagine having to go by the crossing guard every day on your way to school after he molested you. And you're just a little kid, maybe 8 years old. Can't tell anyone, but you still have to go near him every day. Everyone else gets to feel safe crossing the street, but not you. (This didn't happen to me, but it did happen. Same guy, multiple kids, no one can do anything about it except hope he dies.)

Or imagine that you are blind, someone rapes you, and you tell the authorities. They decide that because you are blind, you wouldn't have any idea sex was going on, so they're not going to bother.

And don't forget that raping of men is still considered impossible, at least in some circumstances. That certainly does boys and men no favors, and I really don't know how accurate our statistics are regarding rape of men.

And let's not forget how mentally disabled adults and children are raped, people whom we tend to view as children and in need of protection.

Add to all that the flippant comments about rape people make. Rape is so funny. This or that woman clearly needs to get raped. Oh, I'd love to rape her. I mean, it's hilarious - the culture at large certainly thinks so.

You think it just sounds so weird and nonchalant, but it happens like that sometimes. The world is full of evil shit, and ignoring the stuff that doesn't sound sensible only makes it worse.

rothide wrote:

I would think that a history of abuse would be there, either given to the person, or the person doing it to others. Or a hatred of women, that you want to hurt them as much as possible.


Yeah. These can also be involved. Rape is about power. One of the more powerful things about it is how hard it is to talk about it, and how much people don't want to hear about it. If your culture lacks good language for talking about sex, then it'll be nigh on impossible to even explain what you went through.

If the authorities do little to enforce existing laws about rape, very likely you will at least hesitate to report it. You may want to avoid backlash if you've seen how other people coming forward are treated.


Wait, people actually think rape is funny? I mean sure it's considered funny if its a woman doing it to a man, but vice versa? Around here that kind of talk gets the dentist some paychecks, and the hospital if not careful.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:

Wait, people actually think rape is funny? I mean sure it's considered funny if its a woman doing it to a man, but vice versa? Around here that kind of talk gets the dentist some paychecks, and the hospital if not careful.


Are you literally unaware of rape jokes? Google rape jokes. I will see if I can find something.

And for the record, I find rape jokes about anyone distasteful, generally. They come out of nowhere, too - like when I decided to watch Mirror Mirror. It was an okay film, I liked some of it, and then suddenly a joke which was actually just a man describing being raped. The humor there is just that: Someone being raped - not by a woman, but by a cockroach.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Rothide wrote:

Wait, people actually think rape is funny? I mean sure it's considered funny if its a woman doing it to a man, but vice versa? Around here that kind of talk gets the dentist some paychecks, and the hospital if not careful.


Are you literally unaware of rape jokes? Google rape jokes. I will see if I can find something.


Yes I am unaware of rapejokes, don't forget raised Christian and most people I knew had decency, but if your going by the Internet, don't forget it also gave us 2 girls 1... Well either way the Internet is the cesspool of humanity...

Edit:And while I have heard of people needing to get bent, I never considered that rape, but consensual sex. And if anyone said, " she needs to get raped" where I'm from, no doctor could save that ass's ass.
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Last edited by Rothide on Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:58 am; edited 2 times in total
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Rothide wrote:

Wait, people actually think rape is funny? I mean sure it's considered funny if its a woman doing it to a man, but vice versa? Around here that kind of talk gets the dentist some paychecks, and the hospital if not careful.


Are you literally unaware of rape jokes? Google rape jokes. I will see if I can find something.


Yes I am unaware of rapejokes, don't forget raised Christian and most people I knew had decency, but if your going by the Internet, don't forget it also gave us 2 girls 1... Well either way the Internet is the cesspool of humanity...


The internet is humanity unfiltered.
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Rothide wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Rothide wrote:

Wait, people actually think rape is funny? I mean sure it's considered funny if its a woman doing it to a man, but vice versa? Around here that kind of talk gets the dentist some paychecks, and the hospital if not careful.


Are you literally unaware of rape jokes? Google rape jokes. I will see if I can find something.


Yes I am unaware of rapejokes, don't forget raised Christian and most people I knew had decency, but if your going by the Internet, don't forget it also gave us 2 girls 1... Well either way the Internet is the cesspool of humanity...


The internet is humanity unfiltered.


I agree, and to tell you something else, every time I see that gif of mr Rogers my soul dies a bit...
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Rothide wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Rothide wrote:

Wait, people actually think rape is funny? I mean sure it's considered funny if its a woman doing it to a man, but vice versa? Around here that kind of talk gets the dentist some paychecks, and the hospital if not careful.


Are you literally unaware of rape jokes? Google rape jokes. I will see if I can find something.


Yes I am unaware of rapejokes, don't forget raised Christian and most people I knew had decency, but if your going by the Internet, don't forget it also gave us 2 girls 1... Well either way the Internet is the cesspool of humanity...


The internet is humanity unfiltered.


I agree, and to tell you something else, every time I see that gif of mr Rogers my soul dies a bit...


Don't worry too much about it. It's taken out of context. In the video he's just teaching kids a song about the name of your fingers. If you look on youtube for it you'll find it easily and find out it is rather harmless. Mr. Rogers is probably the closest thing you'll find to a holy man on television. XD
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Yrvani



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:

Good call on that, bitflipper, and I would have to do more research on the subject. I am just speaking from my experience at this point and from what I see and hear. The world is changing in the way that perhaps one day both partners will be expected to be successful, but I still feel that in this day and age men are still more expected to be the breadwinners than women.

Takii, most definitely there is a discrepency on that, but I don't believe that the sole cause is sexism. I believe it is because men desire the power and status of the doctor title and thus aren't content to be nurses. Although they are 1/10 in the nursing field, it is usually 2/1 in other fields, and in medical assisting it is 1/2 there. So, I don't think there is any underlying sexist meaning in that only 1/10 of nurses are male. I just think most men prefer to go all the way and get a doctorate.

Anyway, I do believe there is a storm coming so I might just go inside. Not to mention that my wife is home and I believe she should get first priority on my time. Razz

Good day gentlefolk.


This is lingering inequality. We need to change this. Feminism wants to change this. This is why I say it is a cultural change we have to do in our societies. Culture tells us a man must be more powerful, more breadwinning, and that a woman must be more nurturing, more grateful for what she has. This is damaging to both genders. The middle ground is where we all should meet.

We can't just look at society and say "this is how it is, it sucks, but it's how it is" and then be satisfied with that. We can't say "maybe it'll be better in future generations, even if I don't bother to work towards it", that's just preposterous.

What we can do is go into those pesky details Rothide hates, once we have decided that this is something we actually need and want to change. We can try and be clever about it, fight the structures in various ways. It's not a one shot cure. Research and experiments has to be done in each problematic area, plenty of social research and yes there will undoubtedly be failures.

If you really want it to change and think the people who try this research and these experiments are complete nutters, then come up with alternatives. If you see something silly, do research into why this silly thing happened and come up with ideas of how to solve it without being silly. But always keep in mind that not doing anything is the silliest of it all.
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is lingering inequality. We need to change this. Feminism wants to change this. This is why I say it is a cultural change we have to do in our societies. Culture tells us a man must be more powerful, more breadwinning, and that a woman must be more nurturing, more grateful for what she has. This is damaging to both genders. The middle ground is where we all should meet.


I understand how some might feel guilty and apologetic about forcing the role of bread-winner upon a man, but I do not see it that way. I love that role. I am trying my best to get myself into a position where I can work and support my wife so she doesn't have to work. It might mean I have to abandon psychology for a year, get a certificate in CNC machining, and go back to it eventually, but I love my role. That's what I am striving to be. I think our society is far too worried about the self and not about others. I see my role as something that gives me a goal and purpose.
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Yrvani



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:

I understand how some might feel guilty and apologetic about forcing the role of bread-winner upon a man, but I do not see it that way. I love that role. I am trying my best to get myself into a position where I can work and support my wife so she doesn't have to work. It might mean I have to abandon psychology for a year, get a certificate in CNC machining, and go back to it eventually, but I love my role. That's what I am striving to be. I think our society is far too worried about the self and not about others. I see my role as something that gives me a goal and purpose.


The problem males face with this mechanism is mainly health related. Stress levels, heart attacks, depression (when failing) and suicide. You personally may be fine with it and able to cope with it, but not everyone is. And believe me, everyone feels this pressure even if they attempt to fight it and break conventions. That is why the pressure must go.

With the pressure gone, you'd still be free to choose this life you are living. Nobody is trying to prevent you from doing it. However, we are trying to prevent this being shouted at everyone as the norm. Currently you are favored in doing this, an employer is more likely to acknowledge your position and give you a higher wage and faster promotions at expense of others who may be doing an equal job and have ambitions of their own. That is an unfair advantage. Do you see why it has to disappear?
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Cactuar



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
Quote:
This is lingering inequality. We need to change this. Feminism wants to change this. This is why I say it is a cultural change we have to do in our societies. Culture tells us a man must be more powerful, more breadwinning, and that a woman must be more nurturing, more grateful for what she has. This is damaging to both genders. The middle ground is where we all should meet.


I understand how some might feel guilty and apologetic about forcing the role of bread-winner upon a man, but I do not see it that way. I love that role. I am trying my best to get myself into a position where I can work and support my wife so she doesn't have to work. It might mean I have to abandon psychology for a year, get a certificate in CNC machining, and go back to it eventually, but I love my role. That's what I am striving to be. I think our society is far too worried about the self and not about others. I see my role as something that gives me a goal and purpose.


In which case you will be completely unaffected by a world in which you can choose your own role freely without being pushed into one that makes you or made to feel less than if you don't choose the right one.

The only thing that will change is that all the people who aren't you and aren't well served by the current system will be able to lead fulfilling lives with goals and purpose too!

Eh, I guess that was fairly redundant considering Yvrani's post. C'est la vie.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other day, I overheard a very loud conversation among two women. One had a small child. Here is what I learned:

- The older woman had a grown daughter
- The daughter is a successful business woman
- The daughter doesn't want kids
- The daughter owes her mother and husband a grandchild
- The husband is sad for lack of baby
- The daughter is utterly, utterly selfish
- Every woman needs to have a child before they are 30
- The daughter only visits twice a year for acouple hours at a time
- The daughter likes to go out partying
- It is acceptable to beat your adult children

So to recap, it is not enough for a woman to be successful. She has to have a baby too, regardless of what she wants, because.

(I'm sure we can all imagine why she only visits twice a year. I wouldn't visit at all.)
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
I think our society is far too worried about the self and not about others. I see my role as something that gives me a goal and purpose.


Your role has now changed. For the good of society, you are a baby-eating rapist. Do you accept this role? I mean, it does fulfill a purpose of helping people be cautious. Other people tell you it's good, when they aren't reviling you for fulfilling it.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Rothide wrote:

Wait, people actually think rape is funny? I mean sure it's considered funny if its a woman doing it to a man, but vice versa? Around here that kind of talk gets the dentist some paychecks, and the hospital if not careful.


Are you literally unaware of rape jokes? Google rape jokes. I will see if I can find something.


Yes I am unaware of rapejokes, don't forget raised Christian and most people I knew had decency, but if your going by the Internet, don't forget it also gave us 2 girls 1... Well either way the Internet is the cesspool of humanity...

Edit:And while I have heard of people needing to get bent, I never considered that rape, but consensual sex. And if anyone said, " she needs to get raped" where I'm from, no doctor could save that ass's ass.


Being raised a christian doesn't automatically mean you don't hear stuff like that. Most of the peope I've heard make such joes are Christians. Christians have also been more likely to make jokes about beating up foreigners, people of color, queer people, disabled people, etc. At least in my experience. So you saying you are Christian doesn't automatically make me think you never ran into such stuff, or that you don't make such jokes. (Not saying you do, just that Christianity itself isn't a good indicator.)

On a side note, at my library, we have a special label for DVD and CDs most likely to be stolen. Christian music has a high number of those labels (Thoughnot as high as rock, rap or pop.). One would expect people who follow a religion that discourages theft to not commit it. This is a majority Christian town as well, so it isn't likely non christians stealing to detroy.

I am surprised, though, because it is difficult to not run across horrible things on the internet. Even studiously avoiding such stuff, it is pretty common for forum members and acquaintences on social media to post stuff that is odious.
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