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Rationally speaking... 4/2
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Gibson22 wrote:
I think our society is far too worried about the self and not about others. I see my role as something that gives me a goal and purpose.


Your role has now changed. For the good of society, you are a baby-eating rapist. Do you accept this role? I mean, it does fulfill a purpose of helping people be cautious. Other people tell you it's good, when they aren't reviling you for fulfilling it.


Of course not. Why even go to that point? That hypothetical situation goes so far that it has no bearing here. If anything, you should have made that situation about me possibly being born in the Middle East with strict anti-feminist bearings. That at least would have some relation to what we are talking about.

I mean, I know you are trying to get me to see it from a different point of view by throwing something out there via "A Modest Proposal" style, but jeepers...

Quote:
The other day, I overheard a very loud conversation among two women. One had a small child. Here is what I learned:

- The older woman had a grown daughter
- The daughter is a successful business woman
- The daughter doesn't want kids
- The daughter owes her mother and husband a grandchild
- The husband is sad for lack of baby
- The daughter is utterly, utterly selfish
- Every woman needs to have a child before they are 30
- The daughter only visits twice a year for acouple hours at a time
- The daughter likes to go out partying
- It is acceptable to beat your adult children

So to recap, it is not enough for a woman to be successful. She has to have a baby too, regardless of what she wants, because.

(I'm sure we can all imagine why she only visits twice a year. I wouldn't visit at all.)


Agreed.

I have a story about that, and it goes perfectly. My mother converted to a certain religion when she was younger and my grandmother hated it. She would always argue when they were together and when we stayed at her house she would leave anti-religious literature around for us to read and try to debate us. It got to a point where she lied to members of our church to get my father in trouble. One day, my mother tried to make things right and threw a Mother's Day surprise and brought my grandmother to her home. My grandmother looked at my mom, said "You tricked me." and stormed inside where there was a meal waiting for her. She didn't touch it. Instead, she proceeded to yell at my mom and tell her she was a horrible person, that she was going to hell, and that she was taking her family with her. She had done this for three hours, when le little me (probably around 8 years old) came home from school. She continued to argue with my mother in front of me.

After that moment, my mother, after much prayer and affliction, decided not to see my grandmother again.

Ten years pass and they meet again when her family decides to get together. My grandmother was sweet and kind to my mother and while there are moments she lets her hidden nature show, she bites her tongue because now she sees that such things will not be abided.

So, that woman finds herself in a harsh situation. She will either need to conform, or leave, or stick to her guns long enough and hope that her husband changes her mind. But if she doesn't leave, and the husband wants to have children badly enough that he chooses to leave, would you see him as a villain?

When you marry someone it is inevitable that changes WILL happen. You HAVE to be willing to change. However, this is something that is not so easily done. I do have friends who don't want children because they feel that bringing children into a world like this is a bad idea. If anything, they (the couple) should have had long discussions about this before they got married. They should have thought on the idea that perhaps their opinion would never change. The man was a fool for marrying her if he knew she didn't want kids and he did. Likewise, the woman is a fool for marrying him if she knew he wanted kids and thought that maybe she could change his opinion.

Quite possibly, they both might not have wanted kids but then the man changed his mind. Anyway, forcing people to do anything is not good. But that is actual up front forcing. I wanted to add a bit more, but this is quite a bit (at least for my usual) so I'll see how this goes.
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Being raised a christian doesn't automatically mean you don't hear stuff like that. Most of the peope I've heard make such joes are Christians. Christians have also been more likely to make jokes about beating up foreigners, people of color, queer people, disabled people, etc. At least in my experience. So you saying you are Christian doesn't automatically make me think you never ran into such stuff, or that you don't make such jokes. (Not saying you do, just that Christianity itself isn't a good indicator.)

On a side note, at my library, we have a special label for DVD and CDs most likely to be stolen. Christian music has a high number of those labels (Thoughnot as high as rock, rap or pop.). One would expect people who follow a religion that discourages theft to not commit it. This is a majority Christian town as well, so it isn't likely non christians stealing to detroy.

I am surprised, though, because it is difficult to not run across horrible things on the internet. Even studiously avoiding such stuff, it is pretty common for forum members and acquaintences on social media to post stuff that is odious.


You seem to have a lot of bad experiences with Christians, but please do remember that there are others out there besides just the ones you have had bad dealings with. And most of them would probably want to punch those in the mouth. And just because you live in a "Christian" town, doesn't mean everyone there is a Christian. I could point to feminists who really do hate men and say roughly the same examples you gave me.

I also never really got into twitter or Facebook or Myspace, not a lot of friends here. Most social time I get is when I play World of Warcraft with my raiding guild.
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Valerie



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
And let's not forget how mentally disabled adults and children are raped, people whom we tend to view as children and in need of protection.


You made me remember a case I read about several months ago. I would suggest Rothide read it, too, as it might add some perspective.

I would suggest not reading it right after a meal, though.
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani wrote:
Gibson22 wrote:

I understand how some might feel guilty and apologetic about forcing the role of bread-winner upon a man, but I do not see it that way. I love that role. I am trying my best to get myself into a position where I can work and support my wife so she doesn't have to work. It might mean I have to abandon psychology for a year, get a certificate in CNC machining, and go back to it eventually, but I love my role. That's what I am striving to be. I think our society is far too worried about the self and not about others. I see my role as something that gives me a goal and purpose.


The problem males face with this mechanism is mainly health related. Stress levels, heart attacks, depression (when failing) and suicide. You personally may be fine with it and able to cope with it, but not everyone is. And believe me, everyone feels this pressure even if they attempt to fight it and break conventions. That is why the pressure must go.

With the pressure gone, you'd still be free to choose this life you are living. Nobody is trying to prevent you from doing it. However, we are trying to prevent this being shouted at everyone as the norm. Currently you are favored in doing this, an employer is more likely to acknowledge your position and give you a higher wage and faster promotions at expense of others who may be doing an equal job and have ambitions of their own. That is an unfair advantage. Do you see why it has to disappear?


Sorry it took me so long to respond to you. I almost missed your post. Bitflipper mentioned earlier that there are minorities who are under-represented in certain things and I totally agree. Likewise, I agree that there are definitely instances where women are paid less than men even in situations where they are more effective. However, sometimes I think people cry "unfair" as a crutch though. Being fair is all in the eye of the beholder.

Yet another situation, at my work. I was given a promotion just recently along with a pay raise. I did my research into the position before I negotiated for my raise. I found that the place I was going to was understaffed for some time, had problems finding people to work for them, and that it was a company that preferred to hire within. I found the common hourly pay, and decided that I would like price A (It'd be easier for me to list what I make, but I don't feel comfortable doing that here, sorry) but I would go as low as price B.

I negotiated and let it slip that I would perfectly content with price B. That was my mistake. I could have held out for more, but the employer heard that that was as low as I was willing to go and thus he gave me price B. Even still, that is when my friend comes in...

He also is promoted to the same position I am in, in a different store. He does not negotiate. He let the price get negotiated for him. I told him what I made an hour and he didn't like it. My price B was still considerably higher than his and he argues at his boss about it. Of course he is not going to get that because it had already been settled.

What does this have to do with responsibility and fairness? We always point out the wage gap, but that is not entirely the fault of companies. We are in a age now where they HAVE to hire minorities and women equally or face discrimination suit. That is how it SHOULD be to avoid discrimination, but I am pointing this out to show that they (women and minorities) have an extra bargaining power. Women and men have the power to negotiate when they sign up for a job. If people are unhappy with their wages, they renegotiate and fight it out or go somewhere else.

We always talk about changing society, but the only thing you can really do is educate yourself and realize you are worth more. You have to be more aggressive and be willing to cut ties and leave. I'm not staying at my company forever. In fact, they treat me pretty darn nice whenever I let them know I've been approached by somebody or when I announce what my future plans are.

When people talk about changing society, to me, it always seems like they want everything around them to change and they make no changes themselves. That appears weak to me, and that is why I argue the case so much.

You can't force others to change. You can change though. You can do things better. You can still advocate and make things change, but if you sit around and just complain how things aren't going your way that gets you nowhere.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
mouse wrote:


but i seem to remember having this discussion with you before, about how all the professional discrepancies between men and women have to do with men being all ambitious, and women preferring to marry someone who will take care of them while they stay home and make babies. in fact, i think we had it just before you disappeared - i guess, retired to your man-cave to drink hot cocoa.

hopefully this is enough of a storm to keep you there for another 3 or 4 months. you might want to take a few minutes to do a little reading this time. some history of the women's movement, perhaps?


D'aw! You remembered me! I'm so touched! ^_^


so - you saw my post? care to respond to it?

after that, we can talk about how society has put a lot of emphasis on telling women _not_ to be aggressive, not to stand up to men, indeed how they aren't, in fact, worth as much as men (what with men being the designated bread-winners and all, so you, little lady, are clearly just getting this job to entertain yourself because your husband is paying your bills); how an assertive man is considered assertive while an assertive women is a bitch (we can even do a quick diversion into the problems of being characterized as an Angry Black Man).

first, however, you have to do the reading to accept that women and men have a very long history of _not_ being treated equally in society, and that, in turn, has a long history of whether women work outside the home at all, let alone whether they try to get into traditionally male occupations. then we can worry about how they then have to overcome ...well, pretty much the same history...to be treated equally just for _asking_ for the same pay in the same way.

because if your entire argument is going to be based on yours and your wife's experiences and impressions, we're just going to have to color you 'failed'.
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Arkhron



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote





thx fritterdonut!
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
And let's not forget how mentally disabled adults and children are raped, people whom we tend to view as children and in need of protection.


You made me remember a case I read about several months ago. I would suggest Rothide read it, too, as it might add some perspective.

I would suggest not reading it right after a meal, though.


You know when they have laws like that, yeah I'll get behind it, but as stated, don't have to be a feminist to tell evil and twisted laws should be changed.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkhron wrote:

If by 'good' you mean 'basically the same arguments hashed out over and over and ooooover again' then yup. Sure is.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, with some people i should know better than to try. if they can't even take the risk of responding to a post, why would i think they would take the risk of actually thinking? and learning?
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
so - you saw my post? care to respond to it?


You are right. I should. Give me some time. I want to reread it, take a look at the link you sent me, and give it some thought. I've got the time to give attention to it now.
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
yeah, with some people i should know better than to try. if they can't even take the risk of responding to a post, why would i think they would take the risk of actually thinking? and learning?


Well, you will be surprised to hear (from me, anyway) that you were right. I rechecked my sources to find anything. The only thing I could come up with is that some of those colleges MIGHT have extensive nursing programs and that goes towards the graduate total, but I couldn't get a good enough look at their programs to find out.

So, yep, you were right. Except for pay, the medical field is starting to become more equal in representation.

Sorry to those who were expecting a show.
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So...go ahead and post me some references so I can take a look. But when I have time, of course. I've dedicated enough to this topic today. I will read it though; believe me.

If I'm going to be a psychologist I need to learn how to approach the way people understand and see the world and I must gain more perspective. And however/whenever you want I'll give you my impressions.

Oh, and to be more clear, I meant about the history of feminism. If you don't have websites it'd be nice to hear about a book that you particularly enjoyed. I'll go hunt it down on my day off.


Last edited by Gibson22 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Being raised a christian doesn't automatically mean you don't hear stuff like that. Most of the peope I've heard make such joes are Christians. Christians have also been more likely to make jokes about beating up foreigners, people of color, queer people, disabled people, etc. At least in my experience. So you saying you are Christian doesn't automatically make me think you never ran into such stuff, or that you don't make such jokes. (Not saying you do, just that Christianity itself isn't a good indicator.)

On a side note, at my library, we have a special label for DVD and CDs most likely to be stolen. Christian music has a high number of those labels (Thoughnot as high as rock, rap or pop.). One would expect people who follow a religion that discourages theft to not commit it. This is a majority Christian town as well, so it isn't likely non christians stealing to detroy.

I am surprised, though, because it is difficult to not run across horrible things on the internet. Even studiously avoiding such stuff, it is pretty common for forum members and acquaintences on social media to post stuff that is odious.


You seem to have a lot of bad experiences with Christians, but please do remember that there are others out there besides just the ones you have had bad dealings with. And most of them would probably want to punch those in the mouth. And just because you live in a "Christian" town, doesn't mean everyone there is a Christian. I could point to feminists who really do hate men and say roughly the same examples you gave me.

I also never really got into twitter or Facebook or Myspace, not a lot of friends here. Most social time I get is when I play World of Warcraft with my raiding guild.


It took me quite awhile to learn that, actually, but I am aware of it. I've worked with and been friends with loads of Christians, and they have been awesome. One of the cooler experiences was getting to know a Jehovah's Witness. She was upset because someone from HR announced her birthday, when she had specifically told them not to. I said that was messed up, and she was blown away because apparently no one is ever supportive about that. Then we talked about what it's like to be in a minority, and it was really cool.

Edited to add my point, which I forgot: You should keep in mind where people are coming from. If you know a feminist who is angry at men because of her experiences, then respect her experiences. She's suffered. It would be great if she could understand you are different - but she's not going to know that if you insult her views, tell that she just wants to subjugate men and isn't actually trying to improve things. Engage with people like that instead of defensively arguing. If you don't actually know anything about a philosophy they follow, don't pretend that you do and make pronouncements about it. You don't have to agree, but you should offer a fair chance.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
yeah, with some people i should know better than to try. if they can't even take the risk of responding to a post, why would i think they would take the risk of actually thinking? and learning?


It's not always worth it. I just currently have a drive for explaining things, at least in short bursts.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Gibson22 wrote:
I think our society is far too worried about the self and not about others. I see my role as something that gives me a goal and purpose.


Your role has now changed. For the good of society, you are a baby-eating rapist. Do you accept this role? I mean, it does fulfill a purpose of helping people be cautious. Other people tell you it's good, when they aren't reviling you for fulfilling it.


Of course not. Why even go to that point? That hypothetical situation goes so far that it has no bearing here. If anything, you should have made that situation about me possibly being born in the Middle East with strict anti-feminist bearings. That at least would have some relation to what we are talking about.


My point was to provide you a role you wouldn't want, one that doesn't actually afford you any privilege. I don't know your personal tastes, so I went for something more outlandish.

Another role to consider would be a clown. Imagine that people like you are expected to behave as clowns everywhere you go. People get mad if you don't wear your clown outfit. They get really angry with the ones who aren't actually jolly or don't have above average humor. And they all feel entitled to any random clown's attention and time - without payment and without regard for whatever is going on in your life. Also, all clowns are expected to work in children's entertainment, regardless of their wants. All mainstream media and educational material with representation of clowns shows them working with children, wearing the required clothes, and being happy with no dreams outside of clownery.

gibson22 wrote:

I have a story about that, and it goes perfectly. My mother converted to a certain religion when she was younger and my grandmother hated it. She would always argue when they were together and when we stayed at her house she would leave anti-religious literature around for us to read and try to debate us. It got to a point where she lied to members of our church to get my father in trouble. One day, my mother tried to make things right and threw a Mother's Day surprise and brought my grandmother to her home. My grandmother looked at my mom, said "You tricked me." and stormed inside where there was a meal waiting for her. She didn't touch it. Instead, she proceeded to yell at my mom and tell her she was a horrible person, that she was going to hell, and that she was taking her family with her. She had done this for three hours, when le little me (probably around 8 years old) came home from school. She continued to argue with my mother in front of me.

After that moment, my mother, after much prayer and affliction, decided not to see my grandmother again.

Ten years pass and they meet again when her family decides to get together. My grandmother was sweet and kind to my mother and while there are moments she lets her hidden nature show, she bites her tongue because now she sees that such things will not be abided.
[/quote ]

I forgot to mention the two had said the daughter needs to get back on the right path and go to church, so I'd imagine some similar stuff going on. People should be able to disagree without trying to convert each other in conniving, sneaky ways. It is very sad how many relationships are needlessly ruined with this kind of behavior.

gibson22 wrote:

So, that woman finds herself in a harsh situation. She will either need to conform, or leave, or stick to her guns long enough and hope that her husband changes her mind. But if she doesn't leave, and the husband wants to have children badly enough that he chooses to leave, would you see him as a villain?


I don't see actual people as villains. Instead, I see people who, I disagree with as folks who either don't understand me or who I don't understand.

Wanting a child is not a bad thing, even if the other partner doesn't want one too. Anything which is important enough to be a deal breaker is not by itself bad, either. People who want different paths in life need to settle those differences. If the paths are too different, then separating is an option - and not a bad one.

The problem would be if he blames her for not wanting to have a child, or if he tries to manipulate or unduly pressure her. By pressure I don't mean suggest or take part in discussion, I mean making threats and holding leverage over someone's head. If he tells her that he can't be in a relationship with someone who doesn't want children and they work that out together, I am all for that as a solution.

[quote="gibson22]
When you marry someone it is inevitable that changes WILL happen. You HAVE to be willing to change. However, this is something that is not so easily done. I do have friends who don't want children because they feel that bringing children into a world like this is a bad idea. If anything, they (the couple) should have had long discussions about this before they got married. They should have thought on the idea that perhaps their opinion would never change. The man was a fool for marrying her if he knew she didn't want kids and he did. Likewise, the woman is a fool for marrying him if she knew he wanted kids and thought that maybe she could change his opinion.

Quite possibly, they both might not have wanted kids but then the man changed his mind. Anyway, forcing people to do anything is not good. But that is actual up front forcing. I wanted to add a bit more, but this is quite a bit (at least for my usual) so I'll see how this goes.


There are unknown variables here, many of which would not be concerning. A lot of stuff is important to work out before getting married, but if a couple doesn't and the stuff comes up later, it is important to work it all out fairly. One issue in marriage is queerness. Many older trans people and gay people come out late in life. The situations are hard on both parties, and it can be really tragic. What I've heard from women who were married to gay men is that they feel so foolish and upset, because they thought this other person was attracted to them all these years - and though they still love the other person, they have trouble dealing with their feelings. (I'm not diminishing the other side. I've been there, and oh how bad that is.)

I don't know that this furthers the discussion any, but it makes me sad and I want other people to be sad with me. Sad
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