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Heretical Rants
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5163
Location: No.
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 Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Cactuar wrote: | I think if people want that to be on the menu they should be the ones to ask me about it.
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certain communities are really big on this
partly because they have to be
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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3269
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| Rothide wrote: | I don't think necessarily that Bondage is bad, if practiced correctly it does lead to being closer, some people LIKE giving up control, specially if they are always expected to BE in control, or expected to be the one towing the line. Sometimes just being told what to do or being denide having an action can be a thrill.
Best example I can show is one I've mentioned before, read the Echi manga "Nana to Kaoru" it deals with bondage. It shows what a healthy and even GOOD the act of bondage can be.
I must admit, there is a lot of cheescake in the pinups, but the main story has the main girl, Nana, dressing modestly, even having a onepiece swimsuit durring the "breather" sesions. |
None of the people you are arguing with are discussing bondage porn at all. Bondage ranks way fucking low on the list of things that might be considered problematic in pornography.
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stripeypants
Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3118
Location: Land of the Grumpuses
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:00 am Post subject: |
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One time a guy bought me porn, and then asked if we could watch it. So I said sure. He proceeded to masturbate. I made social commentary about the story and found it utterly hilarious.
Him: (Indignant) That's not how you use it!
Me: (Shrugs) I'm doing the only thing with it that could bring me joy,
I think he left at that point.
Good times.
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stripeypants
Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3118
Location: Land of the Grumpuses
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Monkey Mcdermott wrote: | | Rothide wrote: | I don't think necessarily that Bondage is bad, if practiced correctly it does lead to being closer, some people LIKE giving up control, specially if they are always expected to BE in control, or expected to be the one towing the line. Sometimes just being told what to do or being denide having an action can be a thrill.
Best example I can show is one I've mentioned before, read the Echi manga "Nana to Kaoru" it deals with bondage. It shows what a healthy and even GOOD the act of bondage can be.
I must admit, there is a lot of cheescake in the pinups, but the main story has the main girl, Nana, dressing modestly, even having a onepiece swimsuit durring the "breather" sesions. |
None of the people you are arguing with are discussing bondage porn at all. Bondage ranks way fucking low on the list of things that might be considered problematic in pornography. |
I'm not into bondage and I find most bondage stuff I've seen to be a huge turn off. But nothing there really bothers me, because I know about the kink the porn caters to. The stuff that is supposed to be vanilla is way more problematic.
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Rothide
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| Monkey Mcdermott wrote: | | Rothide wrote: | I don't think necessarily that Bondage is bad, if practiced correctly it does lead to being closer, some people LIKE giving up control, specially if they are always expected to BE in control, or expected to be the one towing the line. Sometimes just being told what to do or being denide having an action can be a thrill.
Best example I can show is one I've mentioned before, read the Echi manga "Nana to Kaoru" it deals with bondage. It shows what a healthy and even GOOD the act of bondage can be.
I must admit, there is a lot of cheescake in the pinups, but the main story has the main girl, Nana, dressing modestly, even having a onepiece swimsuit durring the "breather" sesions. |
None of the people you are arguing with are discussing bondage porn at all. Bondage ranks way fucking low on the list of things that might be considered problematic in pornography. |
I was more replying to Gibsons first post, he did talk about most people agreeing that bondage is bad. May have not understood what he meant though.
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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3269
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Oh, that was just his bad assumption about what most people believe about porn here.
ALTHOUGH If i recall correctly he's not a native english speaker? Which could lead to some communication issues given that we've definitely talked about "degrading" and "power fantasy" in porn before and a half remembered conversation filtered into a different language and then back out might explain it too.
I can't for the life of me imagine where on this forum he'd get the idea that people were anti-bondage.
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Rothide
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| stripeypants wrote: | One time a guy bought me porn, and then asked if we could watch it. So I said sure. He proceeded to masturbate. I made social commentary about the story and found it utterly hilarious.
Him: (Indignant) That's not how you use it!
Me: (Shrugs) I'm doing the only thing with it that could bring me joy,
I think he left at that point.
Good times. |
I like how tvtropes porn with plot put it.
Jesus: This movie is very low quality.
Ray Bob: Don't look that bad to me.
Jesus: There's no story.
Bucky: It's a fuck movie. I don't watch a fuck movie for the story. I watch a fuck movie to see fuckin'.
C.W.: I got to side with Jesus on this one. I personally appreciate an attempt at telling a story. When I care more about the characters, I care more about the fuckin'.
— From Dusk Till Dawn 2: Texas Blood Money
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Heretical Rants
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5163
Location: No.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Gibson22 wrote: | | Under that link I posted |
I just now took a look at that article, and while I didn't find the article itself to be particularly interesting, it led me to this quote
| Sigmund Freud wrote: | | The only thing about masturbation to be ashamed of is doing it poorly. |
teehee
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Gibson22
Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Heretical Rants wrote: | | Gibson22 wrote: | | Under that link I posted |
I just now took a look at that article, and while I didn't find the article itself to be particularly interesting, it led me to this quote
| Sigmund Freud wrote: | | The only thing about masturbation to be ashamed of is doing it poorly. |
teehee |
Sometimes I wish this website was like Facebook so I could "Like" things like this... |
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Thenadathor
Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Okay, porn. We have subjects and consumers. I dislike the gender binary, but that makes things even more confusing and I wanna just talk about things topically so lets first assume the idea of two genders makes sense (it doesn't).
The statement "ALL PORN IS BAD/SEXIST" is impossible to justify. Rational thinkers understand this. 99.9999999999% of porn could be bad and the statement still wouldn't make sense.
The core of this issue is the dual concepts of the individual level and the macro-cultural level. if you think the individual level doesnt matter even a little bit, dont read my posts. we disagree on such a fundamental ontological level that we won't be useful to each other.
The obvious truth is that on the individual level, there DOES exist porn which depicts women enjoying sex without inherently having much, if any, patriarchy-enforcing tendencies. Mysogynists could watch it, enjoy it, and pretend the women involved are submissive and helpless and all those other nasty associations, but there DOES exist content which does not seem to come pre-packed with this mysogyny. http://www.ifeelmyself.com/public/main.php is one example, in my opinion.
The thing that some radfems fail to recognise in my opinion is that porn, that is, the idea of watching people do sexy things and then doing sexy things while watching them do sexy things, is not inherently sexist. Its something that engages with sexuality, and often has a message. Not everything that engages with sexuality and has a message is inherently sexist! Its the same reason political correctness fails to solve racism: the decision to talk about culture and race and the definitions of those words and trends and how these words interact is not inherently racist, in fact if I may editorialize a bit, I think being afraid to engage in a discussion about race for fear of being dehumanized actually reinforces racism by making the topic taboo and difficult to engage with, engagement which leads to healing. Similarly, believing that the act of watching sexual stuff happen on a screen for the purposes of being aroused is inherently sexist actually reinforces sexism.
The porn industry (like all media) has become decentralized due to the Internet, among other things. There are pockets of porn where things are good, everyone is happy, and nobody feels exploited. They are smaller than the ones where women are made to depict things which give me a psychic revulsion, be it due to the more obvious or subtle reinforcing of really shitty gender roles. THE TWO PREVIOUS SENTENCES BOTH CO EXIST. Personally, I try and avoid and rally against the stuff that doesn't work, and while I don't really watch porn anymore these days, I celebrate the stuff that does work culturally. Flipping the table or holding your breath or all those other ways of colloquially being obstinate or dogmatic are not helping.
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Vancore
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Arkhron wrote: | | Ktern wrote: | so honestly i'm wondering, does this "female friendly porn" exist and live up to the title
what does it entail and what about it makes it more "female friendly" |
There exists... attempts. But not because the porn industry feels the bads about itself and wants to redirect its influence along time. Fuck no.
The attempts exists because the average porn consumer are mainly males and they are lefting out a gross percentage of demographic. That's it, 50% of people, and doubling the sales is enough to wet the pants of any kind of film producer.
Take care I am not saying that women don't see porn! But women see porn "designed" (and how! ¬.¬) to males. The industry has years trying to obtain a formula that appeals to female too, whit no success.
As far I know, they have tried using female porn directors, polls, not degrading scenes (like no facials, no bitchslapping, no spit, no... treating the female partner as sex doll or furniture, lol) a storyline that stand by itself, atractive male partner (instead the traditional I-have-a-big-penis-and-neanderthal-forehead-matching)...
And so far, they can't say they achieved it properly. Damn women and their confusing sexuality!
My point here is, although female (kinda) friendly porn exists, it has failed appealing to women. And it failed as a product too, the true cause of its existence
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Book publishers seem to have no problem with this, its a non-direct approach and many probably don't consider it porn. They don't have to, the best porn is suggestive and all in the minds eye (At least to me).
But its visual porn most people have a problem with, cause well, problems. lots of em. It's interesting that cartoons can do it better probably cause its fantasy. Real life porn is hard to act, Hell, soft core porn is tough, a lot of it just turns out bad. And when its good its still fantasy, cause are they Really having a good time in That awkward position?
So...
| Valerie wrote: | | is there something wrong with porn that's more tasteful in regards to gender equality? |
Yes. |
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Cactuar
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Thenadathor wrote: |
The thing that some radfems fail to recognise in my opinion is that porn, that is, the idea of watching people do sexy things and then doing sexy things while watching them do sexy things, is not inherently sexist. Its something that engages with sexuality, and often has a message. Not everything that engages with sexuality and has a message is inherently sexist! Its the same reason political correctness fails to solve racism: the decision to talk about culture and race and the definitions of those words and trends and how these words interact is not inherently racist, in fact if I may editorialize a bit, I think being afraid to engage in a discussion about race for fear of being dehumanized actually reinforces racism by making the topic taboo and difficult to engage with, engagement which leads to healing. Similarly, believing that the act of watching sexual stuff happen on a screen for the purposes of being aroused is inherently sexist actually reinforces sexism. . |
Ah, "political correctness." Forgive me for being leery of people who complain about this term non-ironically. In my experience the behavior they are referring to as "political correctness" can most easily be described as "not being a deliberate asshole to your fellow human beings."
I think you are making a false dichotomy here. Just because the meaning of a certain word isn't literally encoded onto it's very phonemes doesn't mean it can be completely unmoored from the context that gave it it's meaning in the first place.
Sure, the swastika started out as a symbol of good fortune. Sure, there is nothing inherent about that symbol which says it must indicate racism/anti-semitism. Does that mean Jewish people or minorities are unreasonable in interpreting the display of a swastika as such? No. Does that mean it's unreasonable to expect people raised in our culture to understand that it is generally considered a dick move to display swastikas? Fuck no.
And the exact same thing can be said for racial slurs, race-face makeup, fucking nooses, That dumbass "ching-chong" thing people do to Asians, using the word "female" as a noun when referencing humans etc. In like 95% percent of cases claiming to be totally ignorant of the meaning is incredible. It is literally without credibility. The meanings these things have derive from a heavy history and context, and you can't just wish that away with your good intentions.
And finally, and perhaps most importantly, what exactly do you mean by | Quote: | | being afraid to engage in a discussion about race for fear of being dehumanized |
??
One thing I really cannot abide is this persistent attitude that being told you did a racist thing is worse than doing a racist thing.
FFS "dehumanized"?! Do you know what is dehumanizing? Suffering from the effects of racism. Do you know what isn't? Having someone tell you that maybe you are doing a racist thing. Hold on... I think I have a picture that perfectly expresses my feelings on this topic.
TLDR;
The same that applies to the problematic nature of certain slurs and racist practices also pretty much applies to arguments about the problematic nature of pornography. You can't really understand it outside of the context.
But that doesn't mean that you can just philosophically interpret the negative aspects away. This stuff is happening in the real world and we need to look at it in terms of how it is influenced by and in turn affects the real world. |
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Geareye
Joined: 21 Mar 2013
Posts: 254
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Cactuar wrote: |
The same that applies to the problematic nature of certain slurs and racist practices also pretty much applies to arguments about the problematic nature of pornography. You can't really understand it outside of the context.
But that doesn't mean that you can just philosophically interpret the negative aspects away. This stuff is happening in the real world and we need to look at it in terms of how it is influenced by and in turn affects the real world. |
I don't think Thenadathor took it outside the context and how it affects the real world, I think his/her opinion focused on the 'if you can find a single exception, you can't make an absolutely accurate general claim'. As a thought, this isn't incorrect. And it is 'inside' the world because the exception was taken from a real-world example.
If you want to make the case that we should deem something (like porn) either beneficiary or harmful, depending on its majority of applications/manifestations, it's your choice. If someone else wants to deem said something as 'beneficial or harmful depending on the situation', it's their choice too. None of these choices is 'incorrect', it's a matter of how you want to approach reality. |
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Cactuar
Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Geareye wrote: | | Cactuar wrote: |
The same that applies to the problematic nature of certain slurs and racist practices also pretty much applies to arguments about the problematic nature of pornography. You can't really understand it outside of the context.
But that doesn't mean that you can just philosophically interpret the negative aspects away. This stuff is happening in the real world and we need to look at it in terms of how it is influenced by and in turn affects the real world. |
I don't think Thenadathor took it outside the context and how it affects the real world, I think his/her opinion focused on the 'if you can find a single exception, you can't make an absolutely accurate general claim'. As a thought, this isn't incorrect. And it is 'inside' the world because the exception was taken from a real-world example.
If you want to make the case that we should deem something (like porn) either beneficiary or harmful, depending on its majority of applications/manifestations, it's your choice. If someone else wants to deem said something as 'beneficial or harmful depending on the situation', it's their choice too. None of these choices is 'incorrect', it's a matter of how you want to approach reality. |
I agree with the maxim that a single exception invalidates absolute general claims, though I'm just not sure how useful it is as a descriptor for things where the scales are massively tipped.
I am not and have not mad a statement about the total, absolute merits or lacktherof of all porn. I'm not saying making an absolute sweeping statment is valid.
Buuuuut.... if your position is basically that "everything is relative" in the sense that value judgements cannot be made, we will have to disagree. Even if absolute statements cannot be made about a given proposition, that is no basis to claim that one statement is not or cannot be more or less correct than another.
... as in the fallacy where someone claims that since there are only two possible outcomes, they are each 50% likely. This is not necessarily true, it could be 80/20. (I am not claiming you make this fallacy, I merely find it a good analogy to evaluating subjective claims of wrongness)
EDIT: Also for context I am not a moral relativist. I am some kind of consequentialist. |
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Valerie
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Vancore wrote: | And when its good its still fantasy, cause are they Really having a good time in That awkward position?
So...
| Valerie wrote: | | is there something wrong with porn that's more tasteful in regards to gender equality? |
Yes. |
That's a good point. So then is it okay as long as the people involved are genuinely enjoying themselves? (Man, that'd be a hard thing to track.)
I started this topic because I've always considered myself to be fine with the concept of porn (I don't consume it so much, but the concept), but reading Sinfest made me question it a little. I agree with a lot of what Tat has conveyed since the comic took a more feminist turn, so I thought it was worth finding some different opinions and seeing what other people think, because it's always possible that I'm wrong.
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