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Religion, Atheism, What-Have-You
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote





Guest#3: "The power of Christ compels you!" *throws water*
Simon Amstell: "I'm a Jew!"
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Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look pony person. I get that you like this adorably fuzzyheaded man, but why go so far as to twist and turn and dive into historical revision and bigotry to defend one statement of his? Is it really that close to your heart?
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't even know what the fuck are you talking about
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Yrvani



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cute. I still don't have any fucking clue what you're talking about.
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Michael



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani wrote:
You cannot try and separate "religious culture" from "religion". Especially when using such broad terms as "Christian, Muslim, Jew". It's a package deal.


I disagree with you 100% here. For example I was baptised and am culturally catholic, but nowhere near a "christian". I eat special dinners on certain days of the year but that does not make me religious. Same with judaism. It is entirely possible to be jewish without believing in a single jewish tenement.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani wrote:

Being Jewish is slightly more complex. You're born with it, regardless of if you choose to believe, follow rituals or traditions. Adopting it is pretty fucking hard.


ah, cool. so you are a nazi christian hypocrite.

man, you are just full of win.

and if you can't separate 'religious culture' from 'religion', how come so many jews - oh, wait, no, jews have no choice in the matter...how come so many non-christians manage to grow up in the generally christian culture of the united states, and yet manage to still be hindus, muslims, etc., etc.?
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hm. PMs

k, do what you like

I made one post saying I didn't agree with you that Christianity was significantly responsible for any real intellectual accomplishments and it turns into three pages of bickering about Thomas Aquinas and the medieval Arab world and then you're calling me a bigot and a bully.


I wasn't particularly defending anything Simon Amstell said, I was just responding to something you said that didn't sit right with me.

I've already said all I have to say about the matter:

1) Anyone doing anything interesting at the time we were talking about had to suck up to the church because the church had all of the wealth and power, and I don't think we can attribute their accomplishments to the church -- if anything we can lament the possibly less productive direction it drove their work

2) The intellectual accomplishments of medieval Christian philosophers like Thomas Aquinas, while indeed creditable to the church, were only substantially significant to the church

3) The Arab world accomplished far more significant things during the time than did Europe, and this was not particularly due to their religion. Islam resulted in some esoteric geometry, maybe. Okay, whatever.

I don't particularly see religion as a massive force for evil or anything, by the way. Specific sects are currently peddling some horrible ideas that are on their own despicable, and historically people were often even stupider and horrible-er about it, but perhaps in olden times the community aspect of religion etc was more significant and it all balances out. Maybe some other organisation would have filled the important role that religion has played without at least some of the negative aspects had it not taken such strong root, maybe not. Whatever.



I'm done with this conversation. If you want to talk to me about anything, please talk about something else. I'll be friendly if you don't say anything I find to be particularly hateful. I promise. Well, either that, or I'll respond with nonagressive gif soup and unintelligible nonsense. Hard to tell.
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Last edited by Heretical Rants on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
No.


Well, if you wish to continue displaying your ignorance while you mock people for being ignorant, I suppose you can be my guest. It is honestly rather entertaining.

EDIT: And, eh, perhaps that was unnecessarily hostile and dickish of me, I suppose I sometimes get frustrated and wish to repay assholishness with assholishness.


Ok.....so that No was just a precursor to what i'm about to throw at you, I just had to get to work, so lets begin.


There are an estimated 1.2 billion roman catholics in the world (Source) They comprise approximately 50% of the christians in the world.

The roman catholic church routinely lobbies for laws which inhibit a womans right to do as she will with her own body. In many subsets of catholicism it's an automatic excommunication for procuring an abortion for example.

The roman catholic church has also been a staunch opponent for contraception, even in Africa where the aids epidemic is horrendous, they argue against contraception, even intimating that condoms would make the situation worse.

The fact of the matter is, if you're participating in this religion, or any religion, if you're giving them money if you're giving them your labor, you're contributing to their efforts in these areas, maybe not a lot given the size of these religions, but you are still contributing.

Now lets take mormonism, another tithe 10% religion. All I really have to say is Prop 8 in california. Direct lobbying against the rights of others.

We could talk about the Family Rights Council, and their support for the "kill the gays" bill in uganda.

God we could go into the terrible science numerous protestant sects are trying to get taught in high schools. Especially sinister since they really only have to succeed in texas, which will stick most of the rest of the country with the subject matter as well due to how textbooks are printed.

We could go into islam, and its treatment of women and homosexuals.

We could go into Hinduism, but i'd rather not as frankly i'm unfamiliar with most of their tenets and expect that it's kind of a catch all phrase for a number of religions with way more varied beliefs than the flavors of protestantism out there. However I'm relatively sure the caste system they have stems from their religion and the people at the bottom of the pile sure get treated like shit.

I mean we could go on and on but I'm going to give you an opportunity to wow me with some examples of religions whose adherents add up to more than a fraction of a percent of the world population taking steps anywhere near the steps I listed above for equal rights for everyone.
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Michael



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, tenets! That's the word I was looking for Smile
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Yrvani



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:

ah, cool. so you are a nazi christian hypocrite.

man, you are just full of win.

and if you can't separate 'religious culture' from 'religion', how come so many jews - oh, wait, no, jews have no choice in the matter...how come so many non-christians manage to grow up in the generally christian culture of the united states, and yet manage to still be hindus, muslims, etc., etc.?


lulwhut? No, I'm an atheist/agnostic living with an orthodox jewish man. Judaism is very special in this regard, you are jewish if you are born of a jewish mother. You can convert to judaism, but it is very problematic and not encouraged. You can also refuse to apply the term to yourself, but your grandma will most likely frown and continue anyways.

What I'm saying is that it is up to the bloody individuals to apply these titles to themselves. Not me, not you. You can't say someone can't call themselves christian just because they don't feel the spiritual attachment to a god. With this follows that ridiculing all christians for believing in said god is foolish and bigoted.
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Yrvani



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
Yrvani wrote:
You cannot try and separate "religious culture" from "religion". Especially when using such broad terms as "Christian, Muslim, Jew". It's a package deal.


I disagree with you 100% here. For example I was baptised and am culturally catholic, but nowhere near a "christian". I eat special dinners on certain days of the year but that does not make me religious. Same with judaism. It is entirely possible to be jewish without believing in a single jewish tenement.


Confusing. You're perfectly free to not identify as christian. I haven't stated otherwise. What I am stating that someone in your position might choose to do so and be fully in their right to do so. And to then go and ridicule them for having beliefs they don't really have just because they chose to identify as this huge word is.. silly. As for your statement on judaism, well.. err.. yeah.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
Cute. I still don't have any fucking clue what you're talking about.


yrvani has decided she gets to determine what the thread is about. it's about her justifying being a great nazi christian who doesn't believe in god, because why do you need to believe in god to be religious? and if you find that attitude stupid, you are a hater.

don't be a hater, HR.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The word she's throwing around so liberally is 'bigot,' not 'hater,' mouse. Bigot.

One would think you'd reserve this word someone who thinks some group of people is inherently inferior and holds severe prejudice against all members of that group, rather than someone who thinks certain ideas or beliefs are silly and/or counter-productive, but no.
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Felgraf wrote:
mouse wrote:
Felgraf wrote:

What I meant was: A very large chunk of people in the world haven't done the math themselves, or any of the experiments. I realize there's a lot of tech based of quantem mechanics, and that the local hidden variable theorem *HAS* been disproven. (.. I still have trouble wrapping my head around how Bell came up with that test.) A lot of people believe it exists, but a lot of the people haven't really read up on how it works, or done the math, etc etc.


this really exploded, but i just want to state that i really look forward to your presentation of the mathematical proof of god.


You're not going to get one, especially because I'm not sure I *believe* in god.


because you haven't done the math?


Nah, 'cause my religious beliefs tend to be rather vague and nebulous.

I realize you're making fun of me for pointing out that some people believe in quantum mechanics the same way others believe in god. But if you're trying to get a rise out of me, you're... doing a rather poor job of it? *shrugs* If you'd rather make fun than actually discuss, that's your prerogative, I suppose.
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