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Religion, Atheism, What-Have-You
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Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:

you realize that this is the logic that hitler used to send thousands of secular jews, and even jews who had converted to christianity to their deaths in concentration camps, because one drop of jewish blood makes you a jew.


I'm pretty dumbfounded. I retract my earlier apology, because you clearly are a bigoted ignorant person.

More things come into play with Judaism than "having a drop of jewish blood". Being born of a Jewish mother (who mustn't have commited to any other faith) is the actual definition of how to become jewish. Could you please read up on things before you make very hurtful and idiotic comments?

Actually, nevermind. I have better things to do than play your bloody schoolteacher. Good day to you, bigot.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
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Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani wrote:
Look pony person. I get that you like this adorably fuzzyheaded man, but why go so far as to twist and turn and dive into historical revision and bigotry to defend one statement of his? Is it really that close to your heart?


I hate to break it to you, but this officially became a Simon Amstell thread on like, page 8.

Because everyone seemed to agree religion was a shitty topic.

On that note;


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Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:


I hate to break it to you, but this officially became a Simon Amstell thread on like, page 3.

Because everyone seemed to agree religion was a shitty topic.


Hm. I get why. Feminism has rightful issues with it. Everyone takes it very personally, and only those with fringe opinions will really speak up about it or find it a relevant topic.

But I think it is time for religious people to speak up a bit. At least where I live we're getting awfully close to down right persecution of anyone who shows the least tendency towards religion, and I think it's wrong. Left to linger and fester that kind of attitude does lead to even more extremist prejudice in a society. A mentality of "everyone should be like us", downright colonial.

Not a supporter of "eye for an eye". Not a big fan of assumptions or prejudice or force-labelling or stripping people of their right to identify themself.
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Mr_Moustache



Joined: 01 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, all those churchgoers in jail really is bothersome.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani wrote:
But I think it is time for religious people to speak up a bit. At least where I live we're getting awfully close to down right persecution of anyone who shows the least tendency towards religion, and I think it's wrong. Left to linger and fester that kind of attitude does lead to even more extremist prejudice in a society. A mentality of "everyone should be like us", downright colonial.


I'd consider it a (somewhat) deserved backlash from all the times major religious institution has been persecuting people who show the slightest tendency toward LGBT, questioning church teachings, religions other than X, being a woman, etc.

Also, I'm not certain of where you live; I think you may have mentioned it but the country escapes me. I want to say somewhere Nordic, perhaps? But anyhoo, I know people who live down in the southern US and they are very much judged by their family for not attending church, supporting gay rights, etc.
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Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:


I'd consider it a (somewhat) deserved backlash from all the times major religious institution has been persecuting people who show the slightest tendency toward LGBT, questioning church teachings, religions other than X, being a woman, etc.

Also, I'm not certain of where you live; I think you may have mentioned it but the country escapes me. I want to say somewhere Nordic, perhaps? But anyhoo, I know people who live down in the southern US and they are very much judged by their family for not attending church, supporting gay rights, etc.


Sweden, yes. I'm one of those stick-up-the-arse politically correct Swedes.

Hate religious bigottery too. Can hate bigottery regardless of what it's bigottering about.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is so noble, but why do you have to be such a boring douche?
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Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
That is so noble, but why do you have to be such a boring douche?


It's in my cultural heritage
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani wrote:
You cannot try and separate "religious culture" from "religion". Especially when using such broad terms as "Christian, Muslim, Jew". It's a package deal.

Being Jewish is slightly more complex. You're born with it, regardless of if you choose to believe, follow rituals or traditions. Adopting it is pretty fucking hard.

You are wrong about not being able to split cultural or genetic Jews from the religious, because simply using the adjective does exactly that. If I say a thing about religious Jews, then it is about religious Jews, and not about people who are genetically Jewish or consider themselves part of Jewish culture.

Simon Amstell was unmistakably talking about religious Jews, and not cultural or genetic Jews, because he specifically stated he was talking about religious people.
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention that you could only make that argument for Jews anyway. Google tells me there is such a thing as "Atheistic Christians", but it's fairly safe to say that if someone identifies themself as Christian, he is religious.

Last edited by Bart on Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Yrvani wrote:
You cannot try and separate "religious culture" from "religion". Especially when using such broad terms as "Christian, Muslim, Jew". It's a package deal.

Being Jewish is slightly more complex. You're born with it, regardless of if you choose to believe, follow rituals or traditions. Adopting it is pretty fucking hard.

You are wrong about not being able to split cultural or genetic Jews from the religious, because simply using the adjective does exactly that. If I say a thing about religious Jews, then it is about religious Jews, and not about people who are genetically Jewish or consider themselves part of Jewish culture.

Simon Amstell was unmistakably talking about religious Jews, and not cultural or genetic Jews, because he specifically stated he was talking about religious people.


Well that's why I added that being Jewish is more complex, because of the inheritance situation. You have a third situation here, where the name can be applied to individuals who shun both the culture and the beliefs.
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Yrvani



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bart wrote:
Not to mention that you could only make that argument for Jews anyway. Google tells me there is such a thing as "Atheistic Christians", but it's fairly save to say that if someone identifies themself as Christian, he is religious.


Try agnostic christian instead. Also your google fu is failing you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
My opinion is that if you have an association with a religion that works to promote second class citizens and you sit silently while they do this in your name,

Your phrase, "have an association with" is really problematic. If your parents took you to their Catholic church when they were little, and so you call yourself Catholic, that doesn't make you responsible for every evil work done by every Catholic. The same is true if you are a Texan - you are not responsible for every evil thing Texans do. The same for the school you went to, and the place you work, and your political party, and for literally every body of people larger than yourself that you "have an association with".

I know you tried to make it work by referring to people who "sit silently" while this happens, but fuck that. Not only is it a pretty fuckwitted thing to say, because vast minorities within the groups sit pretty loudly, and you are carelessly lumping them into the same "BULL=SHIT" claims you're making, but it's also untrue because inaction doesn't confer blame just because some assholes call themself by the same name you do.

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
you're trash first off, and second off it's still no different from a fully grown adult having an imaginary friend, who tells them to how to behave.

I know you're just trolling, but this is the same sort of idiocy as religious people claiming the non-religious have no morals. It's based on a complete lack on interest in understanding the other side, and it's childish and harmful.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
no - i'm making fun of you for failing to recognize the essential difference between believing in something which is capable of being proven (like quantum mechanics) versus believing in something that cannot be proven (like gods).

The failure in recognition and understanding is yours. In both cases, a person trusts in the thing they cannot prove because people they consider reliable have told them it's true. It doesn't mean anything to add "but it can be proven", because that is a statement the person would have to take on faith, too. The cases are very similar.

mouse wrote:
saying "i'm a christian, but i'm not sure God the Father and his son Jesus Christ actually exist" is like saying "i'm a feminist, i'm just not convinced men and women should have equal rights". you are trying to opt out of the core principle of the group to which you profess to belong.

You are wrong about this, too, and the several other times where you declare you get to decide why people can call themselves Christians. There are a lot of people who use the word to refer to upbringing, there are a lot of people who use the word culturally, and there are people who use the word religiously, even though they aren't sure what they believe. The phrase "agnostic Christian" is perfect valid, and apt for a lot of people. This is classic no-true-scotsman-ing, and completely invalid.

mouse wrote:
yrvani has decided she gets to determine what the thread is about. it's about her justifying being a great nazi christian who doesn't believe in god, because why do you need to believe in god to be religious? and if you find that attitude stupid, you are a hater.

I also find that attitude stupid. It's not as stupid as your calling Yrvani a nazi a whole bunch of times, but it's pretty stupid.

mouse wrote:
you realize that this is the logic that hitler used to send thousands of secular jews, and even jews who had converted to christianity to their deaths in concentration camps, because one drop of jewish blood makes you a jew.

in the real world, if you espouse principles that are defining characteristics of the philosophy of a group, people get to refer to you as a member of that group. you are espousing the same things hitler did, so i get to call you a nazi.

She's using the actual definition of Jew, according to orthodox Judaism. Her assertions about Judaism are more accurate than your assertions about Christianity. Referring to her as a nazi because you are too ignorant to understand what she is saying is the worst kind of disrespectful. You are way, way in the wrong, here.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
You can only assume he is not saying exactly what Feit thinks he's saying.

I assume he is saying exactly what Feit thinks he is saying. It is still wrong. Being a condescending ass toward a large group of people because of a belief they hold (and for no other reason) is still bigotry.

I know that a lot of people want to differentiate this from race and gender, because those things are less mutable, but the truth is that the vast majority of religious people are religious because of their upbringing. It wasn't something under their control, and they cannot simply "not believe" and start on the same playing field as an agnostic.

My favourite argument to get a close-minded Christian to begin considering the subject more openly is to ask what religion he think he'd be if he were raised by Muslims. The answer is not "Christian". I think this applies just as well to those atheists considering religious folk to be mindless children. If Amstell had been born to different parents, in a different culture, he would be the one with the imaginary sky friend.

Maybe a better example than race or feminism would be socioeconomic status - initial state set by birth and standing, but at least somewhat mutable. Most poor people stay poor, and the rich, rich, but there's some mobility there. Mocking religious folk for not changing their religion is about as fair as telling people to bootstrap themselves out of their homelessness.
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