welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Religion, Atheism, What-Have-You
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 39, 40, 41 ... 43, 44, 45  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1190
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
B) Realize that RELIGION ITSELF hasn't done anything bad, because religion is not a magical mystery fairy that worships in people's ears. Religion hasn't killed anyone anymore that communism has, unless ideas have been taking physical form and attacking people of late.


People don't toast toast, toasters toast toast.

Also, as far as philosophy goes, I abide by:

You leave me alone, and let me do as I want;
I leave you alone, and let you do as you want;

Gee that was pretty fucking difficult, eh?
_________________
To get things done, you must love the doing, not the secondary consequences. The work, not the people. Your own action, not any possible object of your charity.
-Howard Roark, The Fountainhead
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 730

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
Felgraf wrote:
B) Realize that RELIGION ITSELF hasn't done anything bad, because religion is not a magical mystery fairy that worships in people's ears. Religion hasn't killed anyone anymore that communism has, unless ideas have been taking physical form and attacking people of late.


People don't toast toast, toasters toast toast.

Also, as far as philosophy goes, I abide by:

You leave me alone, and let me do as I want;
I leave you alone, and let you do as you want;

Gee that was pretty fucking difficult, eh?


Not really, but I agree with that tenant as well (As long as neither of us are fucking over a third person.)
_________________
"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 730

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Actually no, I'm a big believer in a lot of the tenets of christianity, i feel if we could all live our lives a little more like jesus said we should the world would be a better place. I think the spirit and intent behind most of the worlds religions can be an uplifting and worthy goal for humanity to work for. I think that the need to ascribe supernatural elements to these philosophies is a weakness of the human race because it puts an end point on what we see as the "knowable" to too much of humanity. I think the trappings and the baggage and the whole "religion" behind the very simple philosophy of "Treat each other well" that you find laced throughout damn near every major religion in existence have caused significant harm to our progress as a species.


Fair enough, and I agree with that.

I suppose part of it's that growing up, my exerpeince with religion was.. different than everyone else's. The UCC's pro science, pro medicine, heck, pro-other-religions. Even with the spiritual trappings. I really do, sincerely believe that a lot of members of the UCC *believe* in making the world a better place. (To the point that I recall an easter sermon griping about how a lot of christian factions feel making the world a better place, easing the suffering of people,, is unnecessary That a lot ascribe to the 'lottery' version of Christianity. "CONGRATULATIONS! You've won the prize, you're going to heaven! You've no need to bother with anything on this earth now!"), which is why, I admit, I was getting a bit frustrated and worked up at your comments. And I was a dick in response, so I do apologize for that.

Given that we've also seen these harmful things begin to grow out of stuff that's *not* religion (like fervent nationalism), I do wonder if the real root of the problem is something deeper rooted in human nature. People's desire to please authority, maybe? Or people's dislike of looking critically at their own beliefs and decisions? (But if I'm wrong, that means that everything I've believed in until now is wrong! So I have to believe I'm right).

I dunno.
_________________
"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10798
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Well Descartes basically holds true the idea that perfection is good, yes. The chain of being isn't all that relevant other than that. You basically only need the idea of God to prove God. There must be a perfect being for us to be able to know that we are imperfect.

The Evil Genius goes away because God exists, as God wouldn't let him do that shit.

Right. The linchpin to the whole "God is good, and therefore there is no Evil Genius" is the great chain of being. Because it's what ties His infiniteness to His goodness, and is literally all that denies an infinite Evil Genius. Without it there's no reason to move beyond skepticism that anything beyond your own non-extended thinking self really exists other than an infinite being, because if goodness/perfection and formal reality (the thing infinite beings have in infinite amounts) aren't tied together then there's no reason to assume something infinite must be good and therefore all of reality might still be an illusion set forth by an omnipotent Evil Genius. Other than that, it's not all that relevant.

EDIT: an issue Descartes never addresses is whether the idea of a thing being infinite is itself an idea separate from other ideas, or whether notions of each thing being infinite (infinite goodness, infinite mass, infinite horniness) are separate concepts that one must be able to form without simply negating the finite ("not a thing that is finitely horny"). Based on his willingness to accept that many ideas may simply be compounds of other ideas (he uses this to doubt the existence of angels), I think we can assume he would go with the former, because any notion of something being infinite could then be compounded with any other notion (although the consequences of infinite mass are obviously drastically different than infinite horniness). If a thing being infinite is a separate idea unencumbered by any other quality then you could have good infinite beings, bad infinite beings, indifferent infinite beings, or infinite beings which are at times good and others evil and yet others indifferent.
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Iíll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17281
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i knew if i stayed away from this this weekend, wheels would come along and explain what i meant much more calmly and authoritatively than i could.
Snorri wrote:

mouse, I love you to bits but what you're saying is essentially the same as saying that people are the gender they're born as and not the gender they feel they are. I'm not saying that you believe that, but to put your categorical definitions over the very real personal reasons people have for identifying as a certain gender or faith or culture or whathaveyou. Your definition is totally a good thing if I wanted to know the amount of Christians in the world, the group of people who do not believe in god/jesus but retain the label "Christian" is most likely to be statistical noise anyway. But when it comes to what a specific person identifies as it becomes limiting. Identity simply doesn't work like that. It is inherently problematic so much so that you'll for real hurt people with it.


i will answer this little bit, because this seems to be emblematic of the whole confusion. i seem to be being accused of forcing people into some definition by refusing to accept someone else's definition, when i am refusing to accept that definition because it forces people into boxes. i am at least trying to give people credit for having control over what box they are in, if they chose to jump into one.

to me, insisting that jew=race is, in fact, the same as saying that a person is the sex they are born as, not what they feel. religion is something you can choose; culture, even, is something you can choose; race, you are stuck with. to some extent, this is unavoidable, because we are a visual species and like to classify people according to what they look like. but i don't see this as something that should be expanded, and the nazis provided a very good example of why it should not be expanded. so having someone insist that yes, jew is a race, and it doesn't matter if you change your beliefs or your lifestyle or even whether you yourself believe you are a member of the "jewish race", you are still that race....yeah. i have issues. and that one, i'm not going to give in on. if you all want to think of me as a racist because of that...well, i can live with it.

(especially since i am not sure you can even demonstrate a consistent "race" (in the biological sense, which it would have to be if you are talking matrilineal line of descent), let alone a culture. i am really not convinced that an ashkenazi jew, an ethiopian jew and, say a cochin jew have much in common racially or culturally, other than religious beliefs.)

i think i have said a couple of times - what i really want is for people to say what they mean. if you say "i'm a christian" (when you could equally well have said "i'm a new yorker" or "i'm swedish" or even, gods forbid, "i'm a gamer"), you must (or at least should) be aware that there is such a thing as a christian religion, revolving around the figure of christ, and that this religion is an important thing to you. if you don't want me to make assumptions about what you do or don't believe, qualify your statement. (of course, then we wouldn't have 40 pages of what christian really _means_.)

especially if you believe in whatever a-theistic non-christ-centered, doctrinal nightmare sojobo apparently thinks is what is clearly meant by the generic term 'christian'. that way, i'll know to get clear of you as soon as humanly possible.
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are Jewish, you are so because your mother was Jewish. You are not just Jewish because you practice the religion. Your family is Jewish if you are Jewish. You can convert to the Jewish religion, but not to the Jewish ethnicity. You can convert to another religion from Judaism, but you will not lose your Jewish ethnicity. An ethnic Jew and a religious Jew can both say "I am a Jew." Jewish leaders made these rules, not Nazis.

This is what the Jews say, and if you disagree with that, you are defining their identity for them.

mouse wrote:

to me, insisting that jew=race is, in fact, the same as saying that a person is the sex they are born as, not what they feel. religion is something you can choose; culture, even, is something you can choose; race, you are stuck with. to some extent, this is unavoidable, because we are a visual species and like to classify people according to what they look like. but i don't see this as something that should be expanded, and the nazis provided a very good example of why it should not be expanded. so having someone insist that yes, jew is a race, and it doesn't matter if you change your beliefs or your lifestyle or even whether you yourself believe you are a member of the "jewish race", you are still that race....yeah. i have issues. and that one, i'm not going to give in on. if you all want to think of me as a racist because of that...well, i can live with it.
.


I have a friend who is trans and has Jewish ancestry (as well as other groups like Creole). He doesn't have to trace his family back very far to get to them. Their experience as Jewish people has influenced his experience of life.

His noting that he is Jewish (thanks to his heritage) is different from his gender identity. Gender identity is a personal thing that one person has. If you are trans, your entire family is not also trans with you. You don't get to go home after a day of bullying at school and have an older relative explain to you how your group of people has dealt with such stuff in the past.

Likewise, you don't tend to have kids angsting over whether to come out as a person with Jewish ancestry to their parents - because the parents tend to be the ones who knew in the first place.

Also, the Nazis didn't just kill Jews who practiced Judaism. They killed people who were ethnically Jewish. They killed them because of ideas they held about people who tended to look a certain way, spoke a certain language, and had certain names and family histories. Ignoring the ethnic component of Judaism revises history, by saying that Jewish people as an ethnic group do not exist.


I would also like to point out that the very idea of race seems to be scientifically moot. However, racism still exists, because it is the product of people forming ideas about certain groups of people and then passing those ideas on to further generations. In order to understand racism, then, we need to have an idea of who fits into groups that are oppressed and disenfranchised under it.

Religion can be very tied up in cultural identity. I recall a series of short video clips where various black people were interviewed about religion and the black community. When asked about atheism, Melissa Harris-Perry seemed a bit surprised and suggested you can't really be black if you aren't Christian. It isn't true, as there are black atheists. And there is no one way to be black, either. But if the majority of your group has a belief that all members of the group must be members of a certain religion in order to fit in, you will feel strong pressure to follow that religion.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6080
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewish ethnicity and religion are completely interwoven, and to separate them misses the point of what the Jews say about themselves. it is at the center of the religious story that practicing Jews believe about themselves and their religion and ethnic group's history. God did not promise to make a mighty nation out of just anyone's family; he promised it to Abraham. God did not send Moses to deliver just anyone out of Egypt; he sent Moses to deliver the Jews*. God did not make the covenant with just anyone; he made it with the Jews. throughout the Hebrew Bible, God did not support just any piddling little tribe in the Levant in all those wars; he supported the Jews. God did not give a land of milk and honey to just anyone; he gave it to the Jews. God did not send prophets to go bug just anybody to keep to the covenant; he sent them to go bug the Jews. God did not punish just anyone whenever the Jews broke their part of the covenant; he punished the Jews. the Jewish ethnicity is essential to making sense of the Jewish religion. the Jews are a tribe, and a tribe is defined in part by blood, which is why it's perfectly legitimate for them to say that they are defined in part by blood. that the Nazis did it too does not mean it's illegitimate for the Jews to define themselves that way. the evil in what the Nazis did was that they imposed that definition on a group of which they were not part (and then they started murdering that group on an industrial scale).

*technically, the Hebrews, who became known as Jews once they were exiled and the Temple got destroyed. but for our purposes Hebrew = Israelite = Jew.


Last edited by ShadowCell on Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10566
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know a girl, not to sure how valid her claim is, but she's a smart girl, even has a law degree (take THAT Catholic-schoolgirl-stereotypes) and everything.

She claims that they can trace her family history all the way back to Christ, as in one of her ancestors was a younger sibling of Christ.

She was a Catholic Jew when I first met her.

Catholic school killed her religious beliefs.

Now she is an Atheist Jew.

The problem is really a lack of adequate, non-ambiguous vocabulary. Jews are a people, a bunch of tribes and what not way back when, whose codified religion came to be called Judaism, and someone who practices Judaism is called a Jew.

Also, Mouse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Diaspora

***************************************************
***************************************************
***************************************************

On a completely unrelated note, I'm amazed at how most of the good aspects of religions are lost in all the other bullshit. Treat others as you want to be treated. Talk things out with your kids. Respect others and their stuff. All kinds of shit.

But the one the I find the most fascinating, the most poignant, is right there in Genesis. The whole idea that wrong doing only happens with knowledge of wrongness is just so fucking deep. To me, it simply eclipses all the dogmatic bullshit that comes afterwards.

Just a quick note, I'm not of any practicing religion or codified belief system, but I do believe that all religions (no exceptions) are twisted and perverse forms of codified moral systems; some are way more twisted than others. Given motive, opportunity, and ability, there will always, always, always, be someone around who is going to try to change things to align better with their own views and motives.

Anywho, back to the whole "evil requires knowledge of wrongness idea", I simply love it. That's why I hate when people profess, support, or in any other way advocate anything that requires 'blind faith'. To me, that's weak faith, weak religious conviction. It is not faith if it can not be questioned or examined--maybe you'll come up with answers, maybe you won't, maybe you'll wish you had never asked-- but in the end I feel it is absolutely requisite to believe your beliefs with both eyes wide the fuck open and having 20/20 vision. 'Blind faith' isn't faith, it's a cowardice that shields itself in willful ignorance in order to feel safe and secure. HOWEVER, this isn't the same as accepting ignorance as an answer.

My faith is exactly that: I do not know, and I probably never will know, and that's just fine by me. Accepting uncertainty isn't the same as saying "there is /is not ___________". I think the most honest, truthful, and beneficial thing we can do is coming to terms with our own human limits, the only thing we are limitless in is our margin of error.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://about.me/omardrake
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10698

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
If you are Jewish, you are so because your mother was Jewish.


The fun part is, that that itself a jewish rule, so you can only be jewish if you already believe this jewish idea Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 10227
Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
I know a girl, not to sure how valid her claim is, but she's a smart girl, even has a law degree (take THAT Catholic-schoolgirl-stereotypes) and everything.


I know plenty of people that went to catholic schools that turned out well. I don't know what this stereotype is you speak of, catholic school girls are dumb I guess?

Quote:

She claims that they can trace her family history all the way back to Christ, as in one of her ancestors was a younger sibling of Christ.


It's not unheard of. Even in the realistic spectrum of things. His existence isn't really debated, it was his claim that is.

It's like in 2000 years people will say "I can trace my lineage back to Ronald Reagan." It will hold literally no value, but isn't absurd to think of.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
If you are Jewish, you are so because your mother was Jewish.


The fun part is, that that itself a jewish rule, so you can only be jewish if you already believe this jewish idea Smile


Kinda like how you are considered a member of the Cherokee if you are directly related to someone who was on the Dawes Rolls. You only believe ot if you buy into the idea that tribes have sovereignty.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



'nuff said. I am a theist now.
_________________
Be mellow

Be compassionate
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 730

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkhron wrote:


'nuff said. I am a theist now.


BLAST IT.

You beat me to posting that! XD
_________________
"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6080
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aquinas' long-lost Seventh Way

the Sixth Way was the Argument From Shitty Circumstances, to wit: there are times in your life that are so completely contrived to be as terrible as possible that they cannot have occurred by mere chance, but must be the work of a supremely powerful being who is also a giant dick.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10566
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeD CHiKn wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
I know a girl, not to sure how valid her claim is, but she's a smart girl, even has a law degree (take THAT Catholic-schoolgirl-stereotypes) and everything.


I know plenty of people that went to catholic schools that turned out well. I don't know what this stereotype is you speak of, catholic school girls are dumb I guess?

I guess it's kind of dated now with charter schools and what not, but when I was in school, kids were generally viewed as going to catholic school for one of three reasons: their parents had money, their parents were REALLY religious, or they had been expelled from public school. If I recall, back in eighth grade, her last day of public school involved punching a teacher in the face.
_________________
...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.
http://about.me/omardrake


Last edited by Darqcyde on Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 39, 40, 41 ... 43, 44, 45  Next
Page 40 of 45

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group