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2013-04-10: Djustice Unchained
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm not objecting to your claim that the Jews endured persecution and oppression for hundreds of years

i'm objecting to your claim that the Nazis weren't "evil" at the time Triumph of the Will was made because holy what the fuck is wrong with you you morally fucking stunted piece of shit do you fucking know anything
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not about were they "evil", it's about how they weren't viewed such AT THAT TIME. Now we can look back and say they were, but not in 1934. Them being anti-semitic, from a 1934 perspective, was something sadly, horrifically, something many a group had been before. This is important to think of when you think about Riefenstahl and how she made her film.

The notion that slavery was wrong as well as treating blacks like lesser beings also being wrong was well established and known by the time Griffith made Birth of a Nation.

That's why saying both films are the same bothers me so much.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because no one ever dissented from either of these views, and because the fact that a lot of people were racists certainly made a difference to the jews and black people living back then.

I know I certainly rejoice when I see homophobic crap on display in the media - because fuck, a lot of people think like that! It's awesome!
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that we all need to chill out and relax. Darqcyde isn't a newbie like me, I think that he/she has sinfest cred to say crazy things and think twice before bashing.

Not like me, that is why I try to be careful about what I say xD

In the other hand, Darq, Triumph of the Will was released on 1935 and Mein Kampf, the ideological soul and expectatives of Hitler was published in 1925 (tome I) and 1928 (tome II).

Yeah, you may say in 1935 they haven't genocide no ethnicity still, but their ideas where well know, like the Lebensraum, his absolute hate to judaism and communism... Yeah, we can say that in 1935 they weren't evildoers, but they were evilthinkers and thats why Riefensthal was coerced to film it.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darq, are you seriously trying to say that we can give a pass to people being antisemites in the 1930s because so many other people were antisemites? as though the part where antisemitism is fucking evil was somehow intellectually inaccessible in 1935 or something*? as though that's something we had to discover? as though it matters? even though you're also asserting that other forms of racism were simultaneously recognized as bad (which is historically false but y'know that's actually the least of your problems)? are you really going there?

and you had the gall to quote a fucking Holocaust survivor to try to defend your chickenshit moral relativism, too! quoting a Holocaust survivor in trying to tell us that antisemites deserve a pass on their antisemitism! a Holocaust survivor!

i can no longer believe that you are a real person. you are a sign that there is a God, because an imbecile as complete as you could not have emerged by mere chance. only an intelligent designer with a strange sense of humor could have created you. and such a being we may as well call God.

holy fuck.

Arkhron wrote:
I think that we all need to chill out and relax. Darqcyde isn't a newbie like me, I think that he/she has sinfest cred to say crazy things and think twice before bashing.


clearly you don't know Darqcyde

*and that's all leaving aside the debate among historians over whether the Final Solution was always the plan all along in the form it actually occurred in, or if industrial scale murder was the result the Nazis turned to when it turned out the Jews weren't leaving or dying fast enough in ghettos and slave labor camps.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I'm saying there's was a certain level of ignorance in 1934 about the Nazi's ultimate goals, and an equivalent ignorance was not present in regards to the slaves when Griffith made his film.

And I'm not giving a pass btw. It's a horrific fact: the world was A LOT more anti-semitic pre WWII. It's abhorrently horrible, but it's a fact, not my opinion.
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read half of Mein Kampf for a history class once. (Could not finish because it was just so mindnumbingly boring and dry, which apparently is what mussolini thought of it too.). In that, Hitler said that Jews should be enslaved, rather than killed.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Because no one ever dissented from either of these views, and because the fact that a lot of people were racists certainly made a difference to the jews and black people living back then.

I know I certainly rejoice when I see homophobic crap on display in the media - because fuck, a lot of people think like that! It's awesome!


Oh man, that's not what I'm saying. Actually, as absurd as it sounds, go read the link I posted. From the Jewish perspective, the oppression against them strengthened their community.

I'm not saying it was ok or anything BTW. It's a fucking horrific truth that being anti semitic pre WWII was not viewed anywhere nearly the same as it was afterwards and especially not as it's viewed today. To try and compare Riefenstahl to Griffith and say that they did the same thing is simply disingenuous and not wholly true.

Also, we stepped in WWII not only as a response to Pearl harbor, but also in part to stop the Nazis, and also in part to stop the potential Soviet threat of spreading communism further. Saving concentration camp survivors had nothing to do with it.
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Because no one ever dissented from either of these views, and because the fact that a lot of people were racists certainly made a difference to the jews and black people living back then.

I know I certainly rejoice when I see homophobic crap on display in the media - because fuck, a lot of people think like that! It's awesome!


Oh man, that's not what I'm saying. Actually, as absurd as it sounds, go read the link I posted. From the Jewish perspective, the oppression against them strengthened their community.

I'm not saying it was ok or anything BTW. It's a fucking horrific truth that being anti semitic pre WWII was not viewed anywhere nearly the same as it was afterwards and especially not as it's viewed today. To try and compare Riefenstahl to Griffith and say that they did the same thing is simply disingenuous and not wholly true.


The oppression against them killed six million of their people.

Six million people.

If you survive such stuff, sure you become strong. But it will fuck you up.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can talk about the good things coming out of the Irish potato famine, like crochet and violins, and Irish people enriching the world elsewhere. That doesn't make up for all the dead people, and years of utter deprivation.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's completely bullshit precisely because it was not a secret that the Nazis were raging antisemites. it was part of their platform. it was part of their speeches. it was the central thread of their politics. it was the central thread of their politics going all the way back to 1919. the fact that many people can plausibly say they were at the time unaware of the true extent of the Holocaust does not mean they can claim they were unaware that the Nazis were antisemites.

and that was what Riefenstahl supported, by producing a film that supported the Nazi government. she can plausibly claim ignorance of Auschwitz and the Einsatzgruppen and the true horror of the Holocaust; she cannot plausibly claim ignorance of the Nazis being antisemites. and claiming that you didn't put antisemitism in the film doesn't really help when the government you made the film to support organizes itself around antisemitism.

i know you still won't get it, but suffice it to say you are as wrong about this as you are about, well, pretty much everything else. perhaps you think it was actually James Cameron who produced Birth of a Nation and that's why that's the bad film-that-supports-a-racist-regime and for some reason that makes Triumph of the Will the okay film-that-supports-a-racist-regime? i dunno, indarqtive logic makes me bleed out my ears.

christ on a stick. between this and the victim-blaming parade you have going on in the rape culture thread, you're on a roll tonight.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Because no one ever dissented from either of these views, and because the fact that a lot of people were racists certainly made a difference to the jews and black people living back then.

I know I certainly rejoice when I see homophobic crap on display in the media - because fuck, a lot of people think like that! It's awesome!


Oh man, that's not what I'm saying. Actually, as absurd as it sounds, go read the link I posted. From the Jewish perspective, the oppression against them strengthened their community.

I'm not saying it was ok or anything BTW. It's a fucking horrific truth that being anti semitic pre WWII was not viewed anywhere nearly the same as it was afterwards and especially not as it's viewed today. To try and compare Riefenstahl to Griffith and say that they did the same thing is simply disingenuous and not wholly true.


The oppression against them killed six million of their people.

Six million people.

If you survive such stuff, sure you become strong. But it will fuck you up.


No, i mean it's been said to have strengthened the community in the early days of the Nazi regime. Before any of the camps or anything really started getting underway.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
it's completely bullshit precisely because it was not a secret that the Nazis were raging antisemites. it was part of their platform. it was part of their speeches. it was the central thread of their politics. it was the central thread of their politics going all the way back to 1919. the fact that many people can plausibly say they were at the time unaware of the true extent of the Holocaust does not mean they can claim they were unaware that the Nazis were antisemites.

and that was what Riefenstahl supported, by producing a film that supported the Nazi government. she can plausibly claim ignorance of Auschwitz and the Einsatzgruppen and the true horror of the Holocaust; she cannot plausibly claim ignorance of the Nazis being antisemites. and claiming that you didn't put antisemitism in the film doesn't really help when the government you made the film to support organizes itself around antisemitism.

i know you still won't get it, but suffice it to say you are as wrong about this as you are about, well, pretty much everything else. perhaps you think it was actually James Cameron who produced Birth of a Nation and that's why that's the bad film-that-supports-a-racist-regime and for some reason that makes Triumph of the Will the okay film-that-supports-a-racist-regime? i dunno, indarqtive logic makes me bleed out my ears.

christ on a stick. between this and the victim-blaming parade you have going on in the rape culture thread, you're on a roll tonight.


Being anti-semitic in 1934 Europe wasn't viewed as evil-- it was fucking normal. Dude, you're wrong, so wrong. Did you miss this:
Quote:
In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the Roman Catholic Church adhered to a distinction between "good antisemitism" and "bad antisemitism". The "bad" kind promoted hatred of Jews because of their descent. This was considered un-Christian because the Christian message was intended for all of humanity regardless of ethnicity; anyone could become a Christian. The "good" kind criticized alleged Jewish conspiracies to control newspapers, banks, and other institutions, to care only about accumulation of wealth, etc. Many Catholic bishops wrote articles criticizing Jews on such grounds, and, when accused of promoting hatred of Jews, would remind people that they condemned the "bad" kind of antisemitism.


The fact that the Catholic Church had clearly defined rules on different types of anti-semitism (that there was good and bad varieties) should tell you A LOT about how the world viewed the Jews during that time period.

Being anti-semitic in 1934 was simply not viewed as being "evil" by 1934 standards.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so we're back to your chickenshit moral relativism, are we?

no, lots of people were antisemites back then, and that is precisely the problem, you fucking clown. the fact that lots of people were antisemites at the time is an explanation for its prevalence. it is not an excuse for being an antisemite.

you are the one trying to excuse the antisemites of yesteryear because they didn't think they were wrong (while curiously not trying to excuse the Klansmen of yesteryear even though they didn't think they were wrong either). and that is bullshit. that is, all along, what i've said is bullshit. you keep trying to weasel out of it, but it's still bullshit, you are still spouting bullshit, and you will still spout bullshit because you can't wrap your little mind around it.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um, you do realize in this kind of case, this IS in fact where you're supposed to apply moral relativism, right? Moral relativism was precisely conceived for the very purpose of properly examining different cultures, and past cultures, even if they still have modern versions or continuations, fill that condition.

My point is that if anti semitism had been uncommon back in 1934, or contested by opposition like racism was in America in 1914, then you could hold both directors to the same moral standards.

I'm not excusing anyone of anything. I'm saying judging Riefenstahl as being the same as Griffith is simply wrong, especially if you look at their reactions later on.
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