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A Respectful Conversation about Rape Culture
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TIAB



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 683

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Porn itself is a form of escapism. I don't see anything inherently wrong about that and I don't see it having any inherent effects of culture. The issue continues to be people assuming any form of fantasy is reflective of reality, an inability to draw distinctions between the two and the lack of reality being presented. So I guess the larger issue is not the content itself but the sheer quantity of it being presented versus the deficit of realistic expectations. It's definitely unbalanced. The presentations of fantastic(as in, unreal, not ideal) traits definitely outnumbers presentations of realistic traits. Really, that one-hour lecture in freshmen year of college totally makes up for decades of shitty magazines/television shows/advertisements/etc. telling us how women should respond to sexual advances. I guess I'm saying that porn or other fantasies are harmless when balanced with realistic expectations of behavior, but as a society we don't really do "balanced".

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to watch some hyper-primmed individual tell me about how half of the country wants to kill the other half while I gulp down 64 ounces of artificially flavored sugar-substitute-water that came with my 1000 calorie double chili-cheese-bacon burger with grilled onions which is totally okay because I had a salad for lunch a couple days ago.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Black Kitty wrote:
Yinello wrote:
I agree with Black Kitty. From a young age, kids already get to see violence on tv, games, etc. Even the most cartoony games will have gun where you shoot enemies. Combine that with the news and kids have the ability to discern the difference between real and fake violence. As a result, violent video games don't make someone violent.

But kids aren't confronted with sexual things at a young age (at least, most aren't - but with the importance of sexual education growing, this might change). For most their first sexual interaction is finding and watching porn. Combine that with parents who think talking about sex is the worst sin ever and you've got someone who thinks porn is a realistic image of sex.

Now to actually contradict myself, you could be right TIAB and that porn doesn't change the way people view sex, but perhaps it enforces their idea of how sex should be. An idea that they've gotten thanks to society's way of how men and women should act (the whole hunter and prey bullshit).

This. Exactly.

I disagree about when it starts. I'd say you could trace it back to how we introduce notions of gender roles into children's lives, and that really starts before they are even born. As soon as parents start making choices like "We can't have that in that baby's room, it's too girly" or "Blue isn't appropriate for a little girl's room" they are laying the foundation for how their child will interact with others. At first I wrote "the opposite sex" instead of "others", but I think that is inaccurate.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point Darq. It's pretty creepy when you start looking at exactly what young girls and boys get - the amount of pink, baby dolls and maternity items tossed at little ladies is staggeringly high.

Also this comment, while it's reddit, also is a good example of forcing gender roles on kids:

WHOOPS you can't read it it's private. So:

Quote:
I was in a bookstore today and while browsing noticed a mom and son come in. She told him, "Go find a book you like and we can buy it for daddy to read to you tonight." He looks so happy and runs off. I'm not really paying much attention after this and she is browsing near me (we are both back in the kids section). About five minutes later, her son comes running back and has this book in his hands and is clearly super stoked. It's pink and has a princess on it and he starts telling her "This is the book I want" and begins to go into great detail telling his mom all about the great pictures in it and how he can't wait to read it with daddy and the princess in the book is soooo pretty and wonderful. Honestly it was absolutely adorable and you could tell he was SO into it. The mom becomes physically uncomfortable and is like "Hey, look at this though, it's Thomas the Train!" He wasn't having any of that. She tried it with like the whole thing of picture books. He finally gets this sad look and goes "Is this a girl book too?" and the mom is..... RELIEVED. Not upset that her son has gone from bubbling and happy to visibly depressed and upset. She tells him it's a girl book and not for little boys. He starts to cry and goes to put it back and says "How come every book I like is a girl book" and I swear to fucking god it's like someone was ripping my heart out of my chest and stomping on it. The mom was like a robot about it, put on this fake as shit smile and told him she was going to the cafe for a coffee and he could join her over there when he "found a boy book". She then gave me this weird "oh kids" type face. I gave her a withering look and said in the coldest voice, "I think stories are for everyone." She didn't say anything but fled.
Inside I was raging.
For one thing, if your son is gay, trans*, or basically anything that isn't a cis het male, not buying him a fucking princess book is not going to "fix him".
For another, liking a princess book does not make your son any of the above. What it does make your son is someone who happens to LIKE A FUCKING PRINCESS BOOK.
For another, if you brought your daughter to that store and she grabbed a story about pirates or dinosaurs or like, a car or something, would you demand she go put it back because clearly that non-super-feminine book is going to totally make your daughter a lesbian, right?! Wait, no, that's wrong. Because it's cool when women want to be more like men who are by default in this shit society considered better, but god fucking forbid your son not share those toxic opinions about being okay with the feminine or even thinking it's awesome not being the worst fucking thing ever.
And you know what? Even if your son is gay or trans* or anything else, you're a shitty parent for thinking that means something is wrong with him.
Also, fuck you for also discouraging your kid to read for whatever reason. And especially boys, who are conditioned from a young age similar to how girls are with science and maths, to not participate as much in writing, language arts, and reading.
Just.. fuck fuck FUCK! I get that she may have an uber masculine and sexist husband who wouldn't abide it, I get it. But that child didn't deserve that. Children don't deserve to have their most innocent and safest and precious years tainted by the sexist bullshit that permeates our lives once we've grown.
I wish I could have grabbed every princess book in that store and bought them for him. I wish I could have grabbed him and hugged him and told him "You are totally normal and awesome for liking Princess stories, Princess stories ROCK". I wish that little boy was being read that story he wanted tonight. :/

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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's some good proof this has gotten worse, like the Care Bears.

When I was a kid, they were a kids toy. Boys and girls had them equally. When they relaunched them a few years ago, all of the marketing featured only little girls playing with them.

And HOLY FUCKING SHIT do I hate the Dora the Explorer toy manufacturers. The show is insanely gender neutral, but when you get to the toys and various merchandise . . . sigh. When we took our boys to see Dora live, I couldn't tell you if there were more boys or girls in attendance.

But no one is worse than Mattel, and not because of Barbie. They did it again and again, but no single offense was worse than what they did to Avatar: The Last Air Bender. Forget even the kids, I wanted a Toph action figure. But no, we got no Toph, no Kitara, no Azula, no Kiyoshi warriors. Just one big ol' sausage fest that made acting out most series scenes impossible. And they've done this again and again with series. No matter how crucial or integral a female is to the story, when it comes to major properties, their action figures are non-existent.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Legos actually wins the prize for stupid gender enforcement.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
I think Legos actually wins the prize for stupid gender enforcement.

They may have special "girly" sets now but the basic ones are fairly unisex, and all the toys are sold on the same aisle. So there's that, at least.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Partly ir is their reasoning, saying, "We don't know how to market to firls!" when hey were perectly capable for a long time. They just want to ignore the fact they genderized most of their product, and all of its advertising.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Partly ir is their reasoning, saying, "We don't know how to market to firls!" when hey were perectly capable for a long time. They just want to ignore the fact they genderized most of their product, and all of its advertising.


Well the biggest switch in that regard was done because they were losing far too much money at the time. But boys always played more with Lego than girls, and the company pursued that part of the market more and more over the years.

But they never had much of a grasp on the girl market. Only their latest effort has actually been a success, all the previous ones failed rather badly.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to nominate BRIO as the most unisex toy ever.

I mean... who doesn't like trains?
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Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

with some of these people exerting their control over someone, that feeling of power, probably heightens the sexual gratification.

edit: referring to rapists, not dominates in a dom/sub relationship (although this is probably true in those cases as well). I know next to nothing about bdsm but I wouldn't think that there is anything inherently unhealthy about it if that's how consenting adults who have communicated their expectations and limits choose to express their sexuality.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Melissa and Doug makes some awesome non-gendered playsets as well.

Two people I know of that have a master/slave relationship do so because they want to feel safe, and having such a relationship with a person they trust gives them that. That's not general BDSM, though.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Legitimate Rape Pharmaceutical Ad
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:
Legitimate Rape Pharmaceutical Ad


Definitely trigger warning here, but humorous nonetheless.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:

Quote:
I was in a bookstore today and while browsing noticed a mom and son come in. She told him, "Go find a book you like and we can buy it for daddy to read to you tonight." He looks so happy and runs off. I'm not really paying much attention after this and she is browsing near me (we are both back in the kids section). About five minutes later, her son comes running back and has this book in his hands and is clearly super stoked. It's pink and has a princess on it and he starts telling her "This is the book I want" and begins to go into great detail telling his mom all about the great pictures in it and how he can't wait to read it with daddy and the princess in the book is soooo pretty and wonderful. Honestly it was absolutely adorable and you could tell he was SO into it. The mom becomes physically uncomfortable and is like "Hey, look at this though, it's Thomas the Train!" He wasn't having any of that. She tried it with like the whole thing of picture books. He finally gets this sad look and goes "Is this a girl book too?" and the mom is..... RELIEVED. Not upset that her son has gone from bubbling and happy to visibly depressed and upset. She tells him it's a girl book and not for little boys. He starts to cry and goes to put it back and says "How come every book I like is a girl book" and I swear to fucking god it's like someone was ripping my heart out of my chest and stomping on it. The mom was like a robot about it, put on this fake as shit smile and told him she was going to the cafe for a coffee and he could join her over there when he "found a boy book". She then gave me this weird "oh kids" type face. I gave her a withering look and said in the coldest voice, "I think stories are for everyone." She didn't say anything but fled.
Inside I was raging.
For one thing, if your son is gay, trans*, or basically anything that isn't a cis het male, not buying him a fucking princess book is not going to "fix him".
For another, liking a princess book does not make your son any of the above. What it does make your son is someone who happens to LIKE A FUCKING PRINCESS BOOK.
For another, if you brought your daughter to that store and she grabbed a story about pirates or dinosaurs or like, a car or something, would you demand she go put it back because clearly that non-super-feminine book is going to totally make your daughter a lesbian, right?! Wait, no, that's wrong. Because it's cool when women want to be more like men who are by default in this shit society considered better, but god fucking forbid your son not share those toxic opinions about being okay with the feminine or even thinking it's awesome not being the worst fucking thing ever.
And you know what? Even if your son is gay or trans* or anything else, you're a shitty parent for thinking that means something is wrong with him.
Also, fuck you for also discouraging your kid to read for whatever reason. And especially boys, who are conditioned from a young age similar to how girls are with science and maths, to not participate as much in writing, language arts, and reading.
Just.. fuck fuck FUCK! I get that she may have an uber masculine and sexist husband who wouldn't abide it, I get it. But that child didn't deserve that. Children don't deserve to have their most innocent and safest and precious years tainted by the sexist bullshit that permeates our lives once we've grown.
I wish I could have grabbed every princess book in that store and bought them for him. I wish I could have grabbed him and hugged him and told him "You are totally normal and awesome for liking Princess stories, Princess stories ROCK". I wish that little boy was being read that story he wanted tonight. :/



ack, I didn't read this the last time I was in this thread because it was in a quote

but I agree so much I can't even...
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
There's some good proof this has gotten worse, like the Care Bears.

When I was a kid, they were a kids toy. Boys and girls had them equally. When they relaunched them a few years ago, all of the marketing featured only little girls playing with them.

And HOLY FUCKING SHIT do I hate the Dora the Explorer toy manufacturers. The show is insanely gender neutral, but when you get to the toys and various merchandise . . . sigh. When we took our boys to see Dora live, I couldn't tell you if there were more boys or girls in attendance.

But no one is worse than Mattel, and not because of Barbie. They did it again and again, but no single offense was worse than what they did to Avatar: The Last Air Bender. Forget even the kids, I wanted a Toph action figure. But no, we got no Toph, no Kitara, no Azula, no Kiyoshi warriors. Just one big ol' sausage fest that made acting out most series scenes impossible. And they've done this again and again with series. No matter how crucial or integral a female is to the story, when it comes to major properties, their action figures are non-existent.


WHAT? That's bullshit! Carebares ruled!

... Damn I think there's a few of the stuffed toys floating around my parent's house.

... Also I was unaware of this Avatar action figure bullshit, mostly due to not having been in the action-figure aisle in ages. That's... ... That's stupid. Kitara and Toph are major characters, almost arguably more so than Sokka (they are, at least, more intrinsically powerful. Even if Sokka TECHNICALLY has the highest kill count in the series). I mean, Toph fucking invents metal bending! She would be perfect action figure fodder!

... Granted I admit I would also want to see a "Fire Island PLayers" version of a Toph Action figure, just because that would be hilarious.
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