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[4/29/13] She Misandried Me!
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10778
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reader1 wrote:
one of Wikipedia’s definitions - "A very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings—"catching on," "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do."

all of those can be improved through learning. if you go with the liquid/crystal theory, while its true that each person has a starting intelligence before they've formed any crystal intelligence its not something that's easily measured. Felgraf was right when he said its hard to test for, especially if what you want is base intelligence, that might just be impossible. measureable intelligence, in accordance with the theory, is affected by both base intelligence and what has been learned. not just knowledge like the three r's which fall into crystal intelligence, but more like processes of thinking. you can learn to think more abstractly by practicing which means you can increase fluid intelligence from your base level... not sure you're "supposed" to be able to do that but IMO you can. for the most part that makes the “base” intelligence you seem to be talking about irrelevant doesn't it?

So we have tests for fluid intelligence: Raven's Matrices. It's been around since the 1930s and is widely accepted within the field. I don't want to be a dick, but you keep saying things like "all of those can be improved through learning" but your opinion isn't really evidence of anything (neither is citing Felgraf, even though I like him very much). As it stands right now, the field is pretty firmly in the camp that fluid intelligence is all or almost all set and doesn't change. Recent (2008) research by Jaeggi and Buschkuehl has claimed to increase fluid intelligence but it 1) has not been shown in a wide-scale study, 2) has not been replicated by other researchers, and 3) is not permanent (when you stop training it erodes over time). So, until more research is done the vast majority of the evidence (and this has been studied intensively for 100 years) says that fluid intelligence is pretty well set.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
Procreation privileges? Oooh does that mean I can have sex with plenty of people and never be shamed for it, not risk getting pregnant ever and not having to worry about abortions? Yay! Oh whoops, those are guy privileges.


I hope you do realize that apart from the people who clearly accept
this promiscuous behavior of males as "normal" and starts blaming society for enforcing
the saying "a key that opens many locks is a master key, while a lock opened by many keys is a shitty lock" -
that type of behavior is not openly supported for anyone, due to risk of STDs, and that technically this means you are willing to 'share your body' with pretty much any member of the opposite gender who's willing to comply.
This implies that you give your trust to others in a split second, and are not necessarily ready for an actual relationship.
Hence, why even though the female equivalent is deemed a "slut", the male equivalent is called a "manwhore", even though this is something many people seem to forget.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2757
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
Yinello wrote:
Procreation privileges? Oooh does that mean I can have sex with plenty of people and never be shamed for it, not risk getting pregnant ever and not having to worry about abortions? Yay! Oh whoops, those are guy privileges.


I hope you do realize that apart from the people who clearly accept
this promiscuous behavior of males as "normal" and starts blaming society for enforcing
the saying "a key that opens many locks is a master key, while a lock opened by many keys is a shitty lock" -
that type of behavior is not openly supported for anyone, due to risk of STDs, and that technically this means you are willing to 'share your body' with pretty much any member of the opposite gender who's willing to comply.
This implies that you give your trust to others in a split second, and are not necessarily ready for an actual relationship.
Hence, why even though the female equivalent is deemed a "slut", the male equivalent is called a "manwhore", even though this is something many people seem to forget.


Errr no

These are all very old myths that Tea Party members hang on to.

If I have sex with a lot of people, it's because I want to have sex with a lot of people. It doesn't mean I have relationship problems, because I'm not looking for a relationship, I'm looking for a fuck. Wanting sex =/= wanting love.

Also I love the idea that people who sleep with a lot of people always have many STDs. Do condoms not exist in your world? Do we need to give a Sinfest sex ed class?

I have not one single STD and I'm in a relationship with a guy for 7 years. Please guess how many people I have had quickies with in the time before that. If you're below the double digits, please leave the room.

Also the lock and key analogy is disgusting and render people as objects. Stop it.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
Zhuinden wrote:
Yinello wrote:
Procreation privileges? Oooh does that mean I can have sex with plenty of people and never be shamed for it, not risk getting pregnant ever and not having to worry about abortions? Yay! Oh whoops, those are guy privileges.


I hope you do realize that apart from the people who clearly accept
this promiscuous behavior of males as "normal" and starts blaming society for enforcing
the saying "a key that opens many locks is a master key, while a lock opened by many keys is a shitty lock" -
that type of behavior is not openly supported for anyone, due to risk of STDs, and that technically this means you are willing to 'share your body' with pretty much any member of the opposite gender who's willing to comply.
This implies that you give your trust to others in a split second, and are not necessarily ready for an actual relationship.
Hence, why even though the female equivalent is deemed a "slut", the male equivalent is called a "manwhore", even though this is something many people seem to forget.


Errr no

These are all very old myths that Tea Party members hang on to.

If I have sex with a lot of people, it's because I want to have sex with a lot of people. It doesn't mean I have relationship problems, because I'm not looking for a relationship, I'm looking for a fuck. Wanting sex =/= wanting love.

Also I love the idea that people who sleep with a lot of people always have many STDs. Do condoms not exist in your world? Do we need to give a Sinfest sex ed class?

I have not one single STD and I'm in a relationship with a guy for 7 years. Please guess how many people I have had quickies with in the time before that. If you're below the double digits, please leave the room.

Also the lock and key analogy is disgusting and render people as objects. Stop it.


Condoms can break, and I was trying to say that despite all the "slut shaming" that's going on, the term "manwhore" still exists. The people who still say 'but guys aren't looked down upon for having sex with a bunch of random people!' are the ones who maintain this ideal, instead of collectively "manwhore shaming" them.

Of course, that's if we assume that they deserve to be shamed, considering you've just said it's a choice, and there's no right to condemn others for making legitimate choices.
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notice how the derogatory word "whore," while definitionally gender-neutral is so connected to women in practice that you can't just call a guy a "whore" without adding "man" to it so people understand what you mean.

Why is that?

Could it be, perhaps that despite weak protestations to the contrary, the bulk of societal opprobrium for being promiscuous falls exclusively on women?

hmmmm
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3748
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am so lost in this conversation, but we can at least get on the same page that calling a woman a slut and a man a manwhore are insanely different things? Can you get back to us when men are harrassed in the street by carloads of physically intimidating women screaming "MANWHORE" out the window at them?
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or when mere perception of manwhore-ery can lead to your professional competence in general being questioned or negatively affect your career prospects in a wide range of jobs.
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we can agree that men have trouble in some aspects and women have trouble in some aspects and that these are directly connected and that feminism supports getting rid of all of it.

I still haven't figured out why people get all "WHAT ABOUT MY PROBLEMS IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT" instead of "oh hey I have problems too, let's fix things together."

Women being hurt is not men's fault, it is society's fault. Men being hurt is not women's fault, it is society's fault. Society is made of every single person in it. If we can change enough individuals, we can change society. We are not going to do that as long as we're at each other's necks.

Most of the men I know believe that women should be paid as much as men. Most of the women I know believe that men can take care of children on their own.

I'm tired of it looking like a battle of the sexes, because it's not. It's people vs. society.

I am way too new to be on a soapbox. Especially considering I only read half the thread. >_>
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3228

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aboutwhistles wrote:
...no, I'm pretty sure the dude Nurse Beth is checking out is not the Devil. Not even a pre-Devil Devil (Lucifer the angel?). The Devil's got a pretty distinctive face in all the strips he's in.


Well, I couldn't even tell that guy was supposed to be The Devil. I thought he was just a Devil. Shrug.
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Geareye



Joined: 21 Mar 2013
Posts: 281

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:

pure gold


This. So much this. You get all the cookies of the cosmos.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cactuar wrote:
Notice how the derogatory word "whore," while definitionally gender-neutral is so connected to women in practice that you can't just call a guy a "whore" without adding "man" to it so people understand what you mean.

Why is that?

Could it be, perhaps that despite weak protestations to the contrary, the bulk of societal opprobrium for being promiscuous falls exclusively on women?

hmmmm


I think it's because your language is sexist, actually. My native language doesn't even have "he/she", there's only one word for it.

Quote:
Well, I couldn't even tell that guy was supposed to be The Devil. I thought he was just a Devil. Shrug.

He actually somewhat looked like trans-nique and the young devil. I think this is just Tatsuya's "best hawt guy that you'd go gay for" image.

Quote:
I'm tired of it looking like a battle of the sexes, because it's not. It's people vs. society.

Yup. Those who hold themselves to tradition for no rational reason and calling us out for whatever we're doing differently are causing all the issues.
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Salpta



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 40
Location: Sailing the steel breeze.

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry if I used the wrong words, but as this blog points out "existence of a reward isn’t proof in and of itself of privilege", you can see where I failed. I'm not a sociologist, I'm a chemist and Iused the wrong words but with no evil intent. I do hope you would see it from my view though: History may have made family rearing an area of low worth relegated to a lower status class, but the modern practice of defending it from members outside the class society gave it to certainly makes it appear like a reward. This is the act of making a new "Other" class.

This is in no way shape or form as pressing an issue as violence or rape.

The point I was hoping to make with my really, really poor posts is that I believe it is just as important to try to make the low worth (benevolantly sexist?) areas worth more, as well as lifting people up. Work both sides of that equation. But men are generally unwilling to trade self-sovereignty to gain the so-called female privileges. Women are expected to trade self-sovereignty in order to be regarded as feminine at all. I really don't know what I can do to make femininity self-sovereign other than help others see the example my wife is. (Look at my back posts in other threads.) I get alot of pushback (being removed from mailing lists, removed from Parenting facebook groups, told wrong information about play-dates just because "Some of the other mothers feel uncomfortable with a man being there") when I take the lead in our family's social life. Like I'm trying to diminish them simply because I was in a better position to be the primary care giver for our children. I probably used all the wrong words again, but I hope I'm at least making myself understood instead of just digging deeper.

Thank you Dogen for the constructive feedback, and looking for the meat of what I was trying to so very miserably convey. No sarcasm.

For Dennis a quote I heard: "Slut" is how we demonize women who exercise their right to say "Yes". "Friendzoned" is how we demonize women who exercise their right to say "No".

~Sal. Father of two Daughters, Godfather of three more. Husband of a Child Psychologist who refers to me as her "Third Child, the one on the spectrum".
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Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 1080
Location: in that cool mountain air, on an appalachian trail

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salpta wrote:
this blog


thanks, I was reading that last night and was (unsuccessfully) trying to find it again today to point out that "what is commonly called female privilege is better described as benevolent sexism"
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Reader1



Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
you keep saying things like "all of those can be improved through learning" but your opinion isn't really evidence of anything


thats why its an opinion ;)

also there are major flaws with intelligence tests, people who take them over and over again become better at taking them. does that mean you learn to do better on intelligence tests or that your IQ has gone up? and what’s the difference? also what is the test really supposed to measure? speed? processing power? processing power/time? it all seems rather poorly defined... if you want to know what i base my opinion on just out of curiosity then all i have to go on is logic. take abstract thought for example. that could be defined as all the way's in which a person is capable of thinking. teach them a new way of thinking and by definition they now have a larger capacity for abstract thought
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salpta, that all makes sense. It is unfortunate that more people don't know what some terms for feminist concepts actually mean, because it seems at least half the arguments are over semantics instead of substance.

I think in any case, a lot of activities are worthwhile and fulfilling for people in general, and it is terrible to have those activities so segregated. There are deeper problems than just that, but they are all related and working on one helps to work on the other.
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