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Reader1
Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 111
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 Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| MerchManDan wrote: | | Reader1 wrote: | | Valarie wrote: | | If you realize that what you're doing is bothering someone, and you make a conscious decision not to do anything differently, then you are intentionally acting in a way that you know bothers that person. |
True, but is that always wrong? (again, transitioning to nit-picky ethics) |
I'm not sure that would ever be RIGHT. What the hell kind of question is that? |
nit-picky ethics, they can be reeeeeeealy fun when you have either someone with a rigidly defined moral view or a short fuse. (hopefully this doesn't devolve into trolling... we might want to stop now) suffice to say there are cases: It bothers a prisoner to be put in jail, it bothers an athlete when they’re beaten, it bothers a person when they’re told they can’t drive anymore because they didn’t pass the exam, it hurts someone when they’re broken up with… but none of those things are really wrong. Being overly nice and self-sacrificing, while usually great characteristics, can turn into self-degradation. you may wind up the worlds door mat and that’s not good either. |
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ShadowCell
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 7395
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| none of which is relevant to your suggestion that there are times when it isn't wrong to knowingly and intentionally sexually harass someone |
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Reader1
Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ShadowCell wrote: | | none of which is relevant to your suggestion that there are times when it isn't wrong to knowingly and intentionally sexually harass someone |
1. i never said that(if you think i did you very likely misinterpreted me. if you think i overlooked something quote me, tell me what you think i said, and i'll reply)
2. as i stated earlier i transitioned |
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ShadowCell
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 7395
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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uh
| Reader1 wrote: | | Valarie wrote: | | If you realize that what you're doing is bothering someone, and you make a conscious decision not to do anything differently, then you are intentionally acting in a way that you know bothers that person. |
True, but is that always wrong? (again, transitioning to nit-picky ethics) |
substitute in "sexual harassment" for "bothering someone," because sexual harassment does in fact bother the people who are being sexually harassed and hey y'know what it's what you were actually talking about, and yes, that is what you're saying.
inb4 Reader1 pulls the devil's advocate card to try to save face |
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stripeypants
Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 4741
Location: Land of the Grumpuses
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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obfuscate obfuscate derail obfuscate
Shadowcell, are you sure you know anything? Because we may live in a universe where words have no meaning, and after all, what is experience anyway?
Just sayin'.
[/very illustrative devil's advocate]
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::lesser crisis mode::
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Reader1
Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| ShadowCell wrote: | uh
| Reader1 wrote: | | Valarie wrote: | | If you realize that what you're doing is bothering someone, and you make a conscious decision not to do anything differently, then you are intentionally acting in a way that you know bothers that person. |
True, but is that always wrong? (again, transitioning to nit-picky ethics) |
substitute in "sexual harassment" for "bothering someone," because sexual harassment does in fact bother the people who are being sexually harassed and hey y'know what it's what you were actually talking about, and yes, that is what you're saying.
inb4 Reader1 pulls the devil's advocate card to try to save face |
you directly put words in my mouth and then ask me to defend the new position YOU'VE now created for me? ... i don't even know how to respond to this.(i'll try though)
who knows what i believe better than I do? if you don’t trust my understanding of what I believe in, then you’d be an incredible fool to take me seriously in the first place. I don’t lie to myself to feel good, and why do I need to lie in a forum to a person i’ll never meet? No matter what I say to you or anyone else here there aren’t any consequences to me. what reason do I have to lie? If worse came to worse and the forum turned on me, all I’d have to do is make a new profile and I’d get a fresh start, no strings attached.
Do you actually care what I think? If you do I’d appreciate it if you’d take what I say seriously. If you don’t… why ask me to justify myself at all? |
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Reader1
Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| stripeypants wrote: | obfuscate obfuscate derail obfuscate
Shadowcell, are you sure you know anything? Because we may live in a universe where words have no meaning, and after all, what is experience anyway?
Just sayin'.
[/very illustrative devil's advocate] |
weeeeeell, maybe alittle  ...
but yeah, in all seriousness, i do have a tendency to do that. sorry if that gets to you, it sorta just happens |
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fritterdonut
Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1462
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| aboutwhistles wrote: | | The best men are the ones who actively avoid women (in public) (that they don't know). CONTEXT. |
Perhaps women should follow a similar ruleset, because I'll be damned if I'm going to cross the street to avoid every woman I'd pass on the sidewalk.
Also I think we can all concur that walls of text are fucking horrifying to read through.
Edit: in hindsight that came out as more vitriolic than I intended.
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The Thirties dreamed white marble and slipstream chrome, immortal crystal and burnished bronze, but the rockets on the covers of the Gernsback pulps had fallen on London in the dead of night, screaming. - William Gibson, The Gernsback Continuum |
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Valerie
Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 295
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| fritterdonut wrote: | | aboutwhistles wrote: | | The best men are the ones who actively avoid women (in public) (that they don't know). CONTEXT. |
Perhaps women should follow a similar ruleset, because I'll be damned if I'm going to cross the street to avoid every woman I'd pass on the sidewalk. |
We often do. Here's the difference, though (keep in mind this is all general):
If a woman crosses the street because she feels uncomfortable, it's because she feels uncomfortable enough to be perceived as rude. This is harder for some people than others, because women are "supposed" to be nice/polite/etc.
If a man crosses the street because he thinks a woman feels uncomfortable, it's because he is being considerate of her feelings, and that's awesome.
And really, it only becomes scary (again, in general) if there's no one else around and/or if it's at night. So it's not that every woman you pass will be scared. 
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Men and patriarchy aren't interchangeable. |
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Valerie
Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 295
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| Reader1 wrote: | | ShadowCell wrote: | uh
| Reader1 wrote: | | Valerie wrote: | | If you realize that what you're doing is bothering someone, and you make a conscious decision not to do anything differently, then you are intentionally acting in a way that you know bothers that person. |
True, but is that always wrong? (again, transitioning to nit-picky ethics) |
substitute in "sexual harassment" for "bothering someone," because sexual harassment does in fact bother the people who are being sexually harassed and hey y'know what it's what you were actually talking about, and yes, that is what you're saying.
inb4 Reader1 pulls the devil's advocate card to try to save face |
you directly put words in my mouth and then ask me to defend the new position YOU'VE now created for me? |
I think there was a misunderstanding, here. Reader1, you thought I was being more general than I meant to be, because my wording was not as tight as it could have been. I thought the context of the conversation was enough to suggest that I meant harrassment specifically.
So, now that you know what I meant, could you respond to me as though I had said it that way the first time, please?
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Men and patriarchy aren't interchangeable. |
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Rune
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1815
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| fritterdonut wrote: | | aboutwhistles wrote: | | The best men are the ones who actively avoid women (in public) (that they don't know). CONTEXT. |
Perhaps women should follow a similar ruleset, because I'll be damned if I'm going to cross the street to avoid every woman I'd pass on the sidewalk.
Also I think we can all concur that walls of text are fucking horrifying to read through.
Edit: in hindsight that came out as more vitriolic than I intended. |
Do you know how many behaviors women already change and engage in every single day in order to avoid threatening, frightening, and potentially dangerous situations?
I can just repeat what Valarie said, and what I've been saying from the beginning of this conversation. Be aware of the context. No one is even asking you to cross the street for -every- woman you cross paths with, but we might be asking you to do so if you cross paths with a woman alone on a dark or deserted stretch. There are other cues you can watch for, too, like if she's hurrying, head down, shoulders forward, or other expressions and non-verbal cues that might indicate fear or a desire to just be out of the situation. |
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Rune
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1815
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| Valerie wrote: | | If a woman crosses the street because she feels uncomfortable, it's because she feels uncomfortable enough to be perceived as rude. This is harder for some people than others, because women are "supposed" to be nice/polite/etc. |
There's also the fact that the woman doesn't know how the man is regarding her, and if supposed rude behavior will be the excuse he uses to decide to do something to her in retaliation for not being "nice." This is a thing. One of the things that entitled jerks tend to feel entitled to is "niceness" towards them from women, even when they themselves are being pushy idiots, and they will use it to corner women if they can, and as an excuse for escalation if they don't get it. |
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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3352
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:46 am Post subject: |
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It depresses me to see all these well meaning newbies wasting their text like this.
I really recommend you guys simply read the past posts of people before trying to engage them.
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Rune
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1815
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Monkey Mcdermott wrote: | It depresses me to see all these well meaning newbies wasting their text like this.
I really recommend you guys simply read the past posts of people before trying to engage them. |
Eh, on the internet, it's not always for the person I'm actually talking to. Sometimes it's for the viewers at home. |
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Yomi
Joined: 03 May 2013
Posts: 7
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