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Wonder Woman petition on Change.org!
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Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really feel qualified to comment as I'm not a comic book reader (any knowledge I have comes from animated tv shows), but as this is the internet I have an opinion to share anyway. I have no idea how things were before or how they are changing but I have two comments based on what I've read here. First of all I find the idea of a superhero that promotes peace and nonviolence in all but the most extreme circumstances a very appealing, admirable, commendable concept (which is why I'm a fan of dove from hawk & dove). Secondly, as she is an amazon it really seems truer to the greek mythology that inspired her character for her to be a warrior; but a strong, independent, capable (though not necessarily man-hating, I don't know the amazon mythology well enough to know if that is a part of it) woman.

also, they should maybe allow her to wear a little more clothing. I don't know how women comic book readers feel about this but to me some of the female character's outfits always seemed unnecessarily skimpy.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Just to stress the real point here though, you do not have to be violent to be strong.

This is something DC has turned away from quite a lot recently. Even Superman is always drawn flying around with gleaming red dots for eyes anymore, and happily smashing trucks onto new enemies he's never encountered. I feel like part of it is Jim Lee's influence over the redesigned characters but much of it is just trying to repeat the Darker and Edgier stuff of the bronze age of comics, only this time Superman is steeped in that crap from toe to spit-curl instead of hovering above it as he did before.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Samsally wrote:
Just to stress the real point here though, you do not have to be violent to be strong.

This is something DC has turned away from quite a lot recently. Even Superman is always drawn flying around with gleaming red dots for eyes anymore, and happily smashing trucks onto new enemies he's never encountered. I feel like part of it is Jim Lee's influence over the redesigned characters but much of it is just trying to repeat the Darker and Edgier stuff of the bronze age of comics, only this time Superman is steeped in that crap from toe to spit-curl instead of hovering above it as he did before.


Damnit, I'm not a huge comic book person, but I thought we LEFT that age of "DARK GRITTY VIOLENCE IDEALISM IS FORE SUCKKKEERSSS" in the 90's, along with "POUCHES EVERYWHERE".
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahahaha oh god the 90's. I don't remember when this was made but I'm pretty sure it was first wave horrible dark and gritty:



I forget who the writer is, but one of my exes LURVED his stuff. Because... it was dark and gritty. (PS for some reference here the kid is one of the Robins (Dick, probably) and they are driving away from the event in which he watched his parents die. I think in a circus fire. LOOK ITS BEEN A WHILE.) Not only is Batman being a problematic douchenozzle in regards to ableism, he's also verbally abusing a child who just watched his parents die horribly. WAY TO GO DC.

But anyway back to the point, Wonder Woman: Finn I totally agree with your descriptions and that's basically what she was pre-reboot. She was a powerful warrior who valued peace a whole lot. Being both is what made her so cool.

Part of what really ticks me off with the reboot is that they turned peace-loving Amazons into a lot of straw feminists and then I think killed them all.

((I could be wrong about ANY of this but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Digging up some old knowledge here though.)
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:12 am    Post subject: storytelling concepts etc Reply with quote

You may not need violence to be strong, but you do need conflict for personal growth.

Intimidation techniques are just as terrorizing if not more than violence itself.
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TIAB



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they really wanted her to be an accurate Amazon, she'd need a mastectomy. Calling this move more accurate is a specious claim and only works if people's understanding of Greco-Roman history/mythology is limited to Xena: Warrior Princess. They picked out elements that are more aggressive and "edgier" because fuck you that's why.

Complete aside: fritter, Spidey is Marvel, not DC. Marvel has had their fair of idiocy in the past but they seem to be at a fairly high point with sense right now.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
You do not have to be violent to be strong.

For the love of god, you have missed everything that was awesome about her. What made her great was that she COULD kick ass but didn't. At least.. not if she didn't have to. If she had to, boy you better watch out.


I never meant that you have to be violent to be strong. However, given the trend of turning non-violent heroes into "grittier" versions of their former selves, singling out Wonder Woman to remain a pinnacle of peace seems... off. Also, I'd say even in their more violent incarnations, most superheroes are still heroes; except the ones who got one off series as turning 'bad'.

I'm not going to argue though, as I haven't studied Wonder Woman much so I can't really say what has really changed that much.

Unrelated note: Yes, Transmetropolitan was great.

TIAB wrote:
Complete aside: fritter, Spidey is Marvel, not DC. Marvel has had their fair of idiocy in the past but they seem to be at a fairly high point with sense right now.


Whoopsies, my bad.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Hahahaha oh god the 90's. I don't remember when this was made but I'm pretty sure it was first wave horrible dark and gritty:



I forget who the writer is, but one of my exes LURVED his stuff. Because... it was dark and gritty. (PS for some reference here the kid is one of the Robins (Dick, probably) and they are driving away from the event in which he watched his parents die. I think in a circus fire. LOOK ITS BEEN A WHILE.) Not only is Batman being a problematic douchenozzle in regards to ableism, he's also verbally abusing a child who just watched his parents die horribly. WAY TO GO DC.

But anyway back to the point, Wonder Woman: Finn I totally agree with your descriptions and that's basically what she was pre-reboot. She was a powerful warrior who valued peace a whole lot. Being both is what made her so cool.

Part of what really ticks me off with the reboot is that they turned peace-loving Amazons into a lot of straw feminists and then I think killed them all.

((I could be wrong about ANY of this but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Digging up some old knowledge here though.)



That one is actually more recent, from 2005. But I think you remembered the story right. I recall Batman getting little sleep, talking to himself, and getting pissed at Alfred for giving the kid a cheeseburger - because Robin should have to scrounge the cave for food! It did wonders for Batman!
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh well, I agree 100% 'dark and gritty' is a pretty horrible move for all the formerly-peace loving heroes, especially when they keep doing it sooooo poorly. I mean it's not like we don't have a ton of heroes and anti-heroes that can fill in the ultra-violent roles, we really don't need to start converting them.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonder Woman's 1980s reboot would be a great place to start. You can usually find the trade in a library. The first few issues really set her apart from a lot of typical superheroes.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
That one is actually more recent, from 2005. But I think you remembered the story right. I recall Batman getting little sleep, talking to himself, and getting pissed at Alfred for giving the kid a cheeseburger - because Robin should have to scrounge the cave for food! It did wonders for Batman!

The story was sort of burned into my head because I recall being vaguely creeped out by how awesome boyfriend-at-the-time thought it was. I was like "That's kind of horrible..." and he was all "It's hilarious because it's IRONIC" or some equally awful excuse.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:09 am    Post subject: Film Freak was my favorite batman arc Reply with quote




Ahhhhh the 80s, what a fun time.

Sure wish I could find this old comic somewhere.
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Hahahaha oh god the 90's. I don't remember when this was made but I'm pretty sure it was first wave horrible dark and gritty:



I forget who the writer is, but one of my exes LURVED his stuff. Because... it was dark and gritty. (PS for some reference here the kid is one of the Robins (Dick, probably) and they are driving away from the event in which he watched his parents die. I think in a circus fire. LOOK ITS BEEN A WHILE.) Not only is Batman being a problematic douchenozzle in regards to ableism, he's also verbally abusing a child who just watched his parents die horribly. WAY TO GO DC.

But anyway back to the point, Wonder Woman: Finn I totally agree with your descriptions and that's basically what she was pre-reboot. She was a powerful warrior who valued peace a whole lot. Being both is what made her so cool.

Part of what really ticks me off with the reboot is that they turned peace-loving Amazons into a lot of straw feminists and then I think killed them all.

((I could be wrong about ANY of this but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Digging up some old knowledge here though.)


Frank Miller from All Star Batman and Robin and FUCK WHY DO I KNOW THIS. I never even READ that comic! DAMN YOU TV TROPES.

I have heard that run critiqued not as "Batman", but "Frank Miller Wearing a Batman Suit"

I admit my main exposure to batman came from Batman: The Animated Series.
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TIAB



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce Timm was the person primarily responsible for DC's animated work from Batman: TAS up until New Justice. He and his team fleshed out a lot of characters in ways that hadn't been done before and for many reasons his work has been considered the definitive story of Batman and related characters. Heck, Mr. Freeze didn't even really have a backstory before that and they created something rather meaningful and sympathetic for his out of thin air, not to mention the creation of Harley Quinn. The entire world that was built was full of characters that had justified reasons for their behavior, a distorted villain desperately trying to become normal again/save their loved one/etc. that having anyone, even a villain act in a completely aggressive and mindless manner is rare. There is a damn good reason why people think of the animated universe first and if you go from that to picking up a New 52 book, you have every reason to be disappointed.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TIAB wrote:
If they really wanted her to be an accurate Amazon, she'd need a mastectomy.


that's actually a myth, a widely perpetuated myth, but untrue none the less.
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