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cleocatra



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Cave

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arthain wrote:
Yinello wrote:
@Arthain: Things are better =/= practically non-existant. But shit, of course things are better. It couldn't get worse. And sexual violence occurs A LOT MORE than you think. There are still so many crimes unreported because of the whole victim stigma.

Also you hope violence never dissapears? What the fuck? Abuse isn't the same as BDSM! Are you saying all kids need to have bad shit happening in their lives to know what happiness is? I'm pretty sure you said this as some philosophical hooha and that you don't really mean you want people to get hurt (I HOPE <.<) but damn son, you look like you're advocating people getting beaten up.

I want to live in a world where violence is something that only happens in movies, videogames and books. Because fuck yeah idealism.


I'm a very interesting individual and sometimes that's a bad thing. I'm hardly perfect, I have my faults. I'm not a one-dimensional individual. I have many differing points of view that when taken out of context can seem conflicting.

We are human, humans evolve through conflict. We always have. From the moment we were single celled organism up until the present day we have constantly changed, adapted, grown and evolved through conflict. Conflict is a requirement to continue to grow as a human. Violence is included in that package. If we don't have something to overcome, some adversity to conquer, we will be forever locked in stasis. That's why I never want our world to become peaceful. A peaceful humanity is an evolutionary dead end.

Of course we can't exist with only conflict, we need rest and relaxation. We need both sides of the equation. Like torn muscles on the body, you need to be able to let yourself heal, grow, and become stronger. You don't become stronger by being swaddled in bubble wrap and protected for all sources of pain. You become stronger by coming into contact WITH pain and overcoming it.

Sometimes it's worse than others, sometimes it is taken too far. I'm not advocating murder or rape or genocide. But violence and conflict, in moderation, is required to be a healthy human being. You'll never learn to appreciate the finer things in life without it. You'll never be able to appreciate LIFE without conflict.


A. There's different levels of pain and conflict.
B. Nobody should have to deal with abuse.
C. We don't actually /need/ violence. There will always be violence, but we don't need to have experienced a shit ton of it to deal with people who are violent.
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WellYesYouMay



Joined: 23 Jul 2012
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can have conflict and bad times without violence.
There's a whole lot of citation needed in this argument.
Most reported rapes get convictions? Really? We've got one from Equestria, but what world do *you* live in?
(Seriously, I'd like to move there. What are the schools like?)

Not to mention that your idea hinges on rapes even being reported. Extremely few ever are, due to our culture of victim shaming.
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Arthain



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree there are differing levels of pain and conflict. Like I said too much is too much, but you need some. The issue is finding that line because everyone is different.

The issue with abuse is that it's used too liberally these days. Abuse should be reserved for REAL abuse.

A child getting their ass spanked for doing something bad is considered abuse these days.

15 years ago it was called good parenting.

Today a child getting a ruler smacked over their hands for chucking a text book at the back of someone's head in class is considered an assault.

15 years ago it was called proper education.

I'll only buy your abuse argument if you draw me a line of where abuse starts and ends because quite often in today's world it's used to label anything from a slap on the wrist and beyond. Hell over in Japan I've seen police chase down and arrest men for 'abuse' just because they've asked a teenage girl for directions.

As for violence... well violence is required unfortunately. In the old days it was required to secure a mate, hunt for food, secure your position in society.

In today's society it's changed more to a form of control. Violence, or at least the threat of violence, is usually what keeps most nations and armed forces in control the world over. It's also exists in every aspect of the animal kingdom. All you need to do is look outside and see birds chase each other away from potential mates to see a perfect example of how violence is so pervasive in nature as well. There are too many examples to list them all and I'd need to write an essay for me to properly articulate what I'm trying to say. Just look at the animal kingdom and you'll see violence is their way of life. We may believe we're above them, but we share many of their traits, they've just been adapted to our way of life.

But again it's all about moderation. It's all about what's necessary. It's the unnecessary violence that we should be trying to stop, not violence in general.
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Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 1080
Location: in that cool mountain air, on an appalachian trail

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was educated in catholic schools and some how, for some reason there is something in the paperwork the parents have to sign for their child to be enrolled that gives the teachers the parents consent for old school catholic discipline. so yeah, got my knuckles whacked, stand out in the hall holding two buckets of water out to the sides and not being allowed to put my arms down... you know, all the classics.
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WellYesYouMay



Joined: 23 Jul 2012
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Today a child getting a ruler smacked over their hands for chucking a text book at the back of someone's head in class is considered an assault.

15 years ago it was called proper education.


Yo, Arthain, you're supposed to learn from the mistakes of the past, not wallow in them. 15 years ago we thought a lot of things that weren't true, from science and medical facts, to social change.
50 years ago in my country, schools were racially segregated and marital rape was legal.
The social evolution of mankind is not, by default, a bad thing.
Just because something was once done, that doesn't mean it should be done always.
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CalmBlueSea



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 132
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:
I was educated in catholic schools and some how, for some reason there is something in the paperwork the parents have to sign for their child to be enrolled that gives the teachers the parents consent for old school catholic discipline. so yeah, got my knuckles whacked, stand out in the hall holding two buckets of water out to the sides and not being allowed to put my arms down... you know, all the classics.


I'm honestly curious. Did it work as a corrective punishment? Did it affect you negatively in the long term in any way?
I only ask because spankings and things of that sort weren't done to me, except for very rare instances before I was 6-7.
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Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 1080
Location: in that cool mountain air, on an appalachian trail

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

at that point in life, meaning high school, it was more about the embarrassment or humiliation than being hurt physically. if it had been done earlier, like in grade school, it probably would have the potential long term effects. it was used more as a deterrent than as a corrective punishment. still, I'm sure some people would develop some long term problems from being publicly humiliated at that point in life when you're so insecure to begin with. but I rarely was in any sort of trouble and it didn't really bother me. like I said the point wasn't to inflict pain but to make you not want to be in that situation again. personally, at that age, I think psychological abuse is far more damaging than transient physical pain.


oh, shit! I forgot about the paddle! never got that one myself.
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CalmBlueSea



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 132
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, thanks! Now I understand the aversion to corporal punishment a bit better.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6040
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arthain wrote:
And as sad as it is to say this I hope violence never disappears. Because you can't know pleasure without pain, love without hate and hope without fear.


so you require other people to suffer in order to appreciate good things in life

well that's very interesting but what about people who aren't completely morally stunted clusterfuck tools?
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Mr. North by Northwest



Joined: 14 Nov 2008
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shadow Master wrote:
Mr. North by Northwest wrote:
Take Back The Night is a well-known organization dedicated to eradicating sexual violence.


That... doesn't make much sense.

Sexual violence is already practically non-existent in the first world, much like any kind of violence, since it's practically impossible to escape modern technology-fueled investigations.

If anything, it should be the name of an organization dedicated to reinstating sexual violence and/or superstition.



"Shadow Master": YCTAT
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CalmBlueSea



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 132
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
Arthain wrote:
And as sad as it is to say this I hope violence never disappears. Because you can't know pleasure without pain, love without hate and hope without fear.


so you require other people to suffer in order to appreciate good things in life

well that's very interesting but what about people who aren't completely morally stunted clusterfuck tools?


nonnono, I'm pretty sure that's not what he's saying.

He doesn't want OTHERS to experience pain because it makes his life better: he wants to experience it HIMSELF, because otherwise life would be boring, or he wouldn't as well-rounded a person. Something along those lines. That's how I read it, anyway.

If you want to say that just because that's what works for him, doesn't mean that it will work for everyone, then sure, fair point, that's a discussion starter.

And if I've misunderstood, Arthian, my apologies. Just giving you the benefit of the doubt.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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Location: California

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

he doesn't say he wants to experience it himself, he says it generally, i.e. "i hope violence never disappears because you, generally, can't know pleasure without pain, etc"

which is, y'know, hideous. "thank you, rape victim, for getting raped, so that i can know the pleasure of not getting raped!" christ almighty.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6391

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
Samsally wrote:
Hey remember that time we decided douchebag was a great insult because it was something unnecessary and harmful?

Yep. I also remember when it didn't stick because it is too closely associated with girl excretions = gross.

Can we tailgate this parade too?

Oh yeah, you're right.

Dibs on the bloody mary bar.
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CalmBlueSea



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
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Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
he doesn't say he wants to experience it himself, he says it generally, i.e. "i hope violence never disappears because you, generally, can't know pleasure without pain, etc"

which is, y'know, hideous. "thank you, rape victim, for getting raped, so that i can know the pleasure of not getting raped!" christ almighty.


Arthian, from a few posts prior wrote:
Sometimes it's worse than others, sometimes it is taken too far. I'm not advocating murder or rape or genocide. But violence and conflict, in moderation, is required to be a healthy human being. You'll never learn to appreciate the finer things in life without it. You'll never be able to appreciate LIFE without conflict.


Emphasis mine. He specifically states rape and other atrocities as exceptions to what he is talking about.

Sure, maybe he's being too general, maybe he's prescribing others his own medicine when he shouldn't. I'm just trying to get to the spirit of what he's talking about.
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Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 1080
Location: in that cool mountain air, on an appalachian trail

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arthain wrote:
you can't know pleasure without pain, love without hate and hope without fear.


In theory I agree with you, you can't appreciate the good if you never experienced the bad. It's having tasted the bitter that makes the sweet so sweet. But violence is in no way required to be able to appreciate hope despite fear, love after loss, pleasure from sorrow, heaven from hell, blue skies from pain, green fields from a cold steel rail, a smile from a veil, DO YOU THINK YOU CAN TEL-

...oh, wait, nevermind.
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Last edited by Finnegan on Wed May 08, 2013 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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