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Zhuinden
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 291
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 Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| redshirt26 wrote: | | I would define "dudebro" as a man who views himself superior to all women. I am not sure if that is true to this comic because the last few strips have the Sisterhood hating all men. |
That somewhat brings up a question for me - what about the so-called "self-proclaimed nice guys", who say they're being nice to women but are sullen and hurt when they are (rightfully so) rejected, and assume that the problem is with the women who were not willing to see what a great supporter he would be (to get laid, pretty much) and go for "the assholes"?
(And reject the implicit obligation to go out with the guy merely because he was willing to provide his niceness to her as a privilege (or more-so, bait))
They don't (at first) hate women, but rather idealize them based on the concept of femininity - which they would have to conquer through courtship and niceness. And are obviously surprised when being a suck-up is not enough.
I'd personally say this is just as sexist as all the misogynistic fools. What says you? |
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Dro
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3881
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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I think there is a range. Some might fall into your description. Most people get a little hurt when rejected, and some women make relationship choices that from an outsiders perspective are clearly harmful, so painting all interactions in one way is somewhat simplified.
Personally, I think the whole "only man can ask, woman chooses to accept or reject" gender roles leads to more harmful repercussions (like making it more difficult for women to ask for raises, or encouraging 'alpha' male behavior since men are told to take the lead). |
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Rune
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1055
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Dro wrote: | I think there is a range. Some might fall into your description. Most people get a little hurt when rejected, and some women make relationship choices that from an outsiders perspective are clearly harmful, so painting all interactions in one way is somewhat simplified.
Personally, I think the whole "only man can ask, woman chooses to accept or reject" gender roles leads to more harmful repercussions (like making it more difficult for women to ask for raises, or encouraging 'alpha' male behavior since men are told to take the lead). |
The difference might be a variation on this: http://xkcd.com/385/
Normal people facing rejection might think, "Man, this individual doesn't like me, and I really wanted to be liked. This sucks. I don't get what I want this time." And that's normal and understandable and healthy and fine. They might even think that there's something wrong with the other individual that keeps them from seeing their awesomeness, or get increasingly frustrated with increasing failure. All part of life.
Nice Guys, however, take the generalized approach. They believe that, because they are nice guys, "women" should like them. They're nice to women because they're supposed to be nice to women, for getting nice-to-women cookies, or because it's their not-alpha-male alternative for getting some kind of status (and tail.) Not because being nice to human beings in general is something they value for its own right. And then, when a woman rejects the Nice Guy, it's not just a moment of individual rejection, it's because women aren't "working" the way they're supposed to, and not because that one individual just didn't appreciate his advances for whatever reason.
In the Nice Guy's worldview, women are still this other thing, are still a game to play, are still something to be won: he just chose a different character class. And when he loses, he devolves into a whining rage-nerd, going on about how the game (women) is broken and how the classes are unbalanced, and whah-whah-whah, the Chaos Warriors get all the good loot and his Sensitivity Bard needs a win button. |
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Samsally
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6780
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Rune wrote: | | ... and whah-whah-whah, the Chaos Warriors get all the good loot and his Sensitivity Bard needs a win button. |
Legitimately almost snorted coffee out my nose at this one. A+ rant.
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Dro
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3881
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Rune, that's a good description of the Nice Guy. I was just adding that the whole thing has become a bit of a stereotype as well, and that being a nice guy that gets rejected and even mutters a complaint about it doesn't necessarily make him a Nice Guy. And it would be a shame if the stereotype of the Nice Guy pushes regular nice guys into acting Alpha in order to avoid being painted by that broad brush. |
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aboutwhistles
Joined: 28 Oct 2012
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Oh.. I totally thought that xkcd link was going to be this one:
http://xkcd.com/513/
friends with detriments. |
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WellYesYouMay
Joined: 23 Jul 2012
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Just popping in to say that I love both your descriptions, Rune. The dudebro one sums up my opinion on the term perfectly. |
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Rune
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1055
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| Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, thank ye, very much. |
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jrdelirio
Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Offshore
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| aboutwhistles wrote: | Oh.. I totally thought that xkcd link was going to be this one:
http://xkcd.com/513/
friends with detriments. |
Brilliant! |
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Micius
Joined: 09 May 2013
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:50 am Post subject: Re: What's a dudebro? How would you define it? |
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| Zhuinden wrote: | | But what exactly does the phrase Dudebro mean? |
All of the below: | Zhuinden wrote: | | ...just the oversexualized gender-binary patriarchal thinker... |
| Gibson22 wrote: | | ... those who don't agree with Tat's recent messages on feminism. |
| redshirt26 wrote: | | ... a man who views himself superior to all women. |
| Lich Mong wrote: | | "douchebag" and/or "misogynist" |
| Zhuinden wrote: | ... what about the so-called "self-proclaimed nice guys", who say they're being nice to women but are sullen and hurt when they are (rightfully so) rejected, and assume that the problem is with the women who were not willing to see what a great supporter he would be (to get laid, pretty much) and go for "the assholes"?
(And reject the implicit obligation to go out with the guy merely because he was willing to provide his niceness to her as a privilege (or more-so, bait))
They don't (at first) hate women, but rather idealize them based on the concept of femininity - which they would have to conquer through courtship and niceness. And are obviously surprised when being a suck-up is not enough.
I'd personally say this is just as sexist as all the misogynistic fools. What says you? |
I think the trouble with most self proclaimed 'nice guys' are that they do not chase 'nice girls.' I think it is overly simplistic to say the only reason they are nice is to up their chances of getting laid or somesuch. A lot of 'nice guys' happen to have a hard on for 'bitches.' I am a self proclaimed 'nice guy' myself and happen to be with a 'nice girl,' and I find myself frequently face-palming when said self proclaimed 'nice guys' only find a girl attractive because of appearance or proximity. I think of it being more of an issue of shallowness than sexism.
I think said self proclaimed 'nice guys' who complain about girls chasing 'assholes' are frustrated that their supposed 'good' qualities are left unrecognized and less that they have offered said niceness as a privilege. Said 'nice guys' are generally either overemphasizing their good qualities or chasing the wrong women.
| Rune wrote: | | Normal people facing rejection might think, "Man, this individual doesn't like me, and I really wanted to be liked. This sucks. I don't get what I want this time." And that's normal and understandable and healthy and fine. They might even think that there's something wrong with the other individual that keeps them from seeing their awesomeness, or get increasingly frustrated with increasing failure. All part of life. |
I agree with this part of your observation... | Rune wrote: | | They're nice to women because they're supposed to be nice to women, for getting nice-to-women cookies, or because it's their not-alpha-male alternative for getting some kind of status (and tail.) Not because being nice to human beings in general is something they value for its own right. |
...but this is where you lose me. A lot of people just happen to be nice without expecting anything. You may say "But these 'nice guys' are expecting something," however some of them may legitimately be nice guys and then go into the 'women not "working" the way they're supposed to,' so I think you may have been overly general. |
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stripeypants
Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3486
Location: Land of the Grumpuses
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:31 am Post subject: |
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"A hardon for btches"
What do you mean by this?
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Micius
Joined: 09 May 2013
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| stripeypants wrote: | "A hardon for btches"
What do you mean by this? |
An attraction to women who are not predominantly attracted by qualities possessed by 'nice guys.' Which is not to say a particular individual claiming to be a 'nice guy,' but to run with Rune's analogy, a woman who chases Chaos Warriors. I don't mean to use it in a negative fashion, I just felt it was more poignant that 'not nice girl.' |
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stripeypants
Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think it's a good term for getting across what you want to get across.
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Micius
Joined: 09 May 2013
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| stripeypants wrote: | | I don't think it's a good term for getting across what you want to get across. |
I will avoid it in the future. |
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Zhuinden
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 291
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welcome to the fest
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