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2013-06-07: Can You See It?
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
Quote:
which it is the goal of mankind to ultimately awake from?


Unless of course humanity changes its mind and decides that its goal is to experience the sensation of eating sweet, juicy steak.


*puts on best Shatner voice*

But, at what, cost?
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Moor



Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:27 am    Post subject: Re: 2013-06-07: Can You See It? Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
Of course, that was more than a year and a half ago, so Crim may have simply forgotten about it. It's not as if he hasn't had other stuff happen to him in the interim.


Even if he hasn't forgotten that, he has no way of knowing that that is what 'Nique is asking about.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my personal viewpoint on the comic, I believe I can be wrong and if people have a problem with it, I will not defend it and accept that this can be wrong.

I'm beginning to wonder if Monique is starting to make the matrix her new... tether? I'm trying for a word that basically says she's so focusing on it that if anyone else doesn't it's a problem for her.

I'm getting this from her almost elated reaction to find out he's reading feminist literature, but then seems to get depressed and saddened that he's not seeing the matrix.

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Crim is nowhere near a Dudebro or Nice Guy. If anything he could be considered a male ally, however because he's not taking part in the "sisterhoods" view of the world, it seems to becomes a problem for her.

We don't see her face though, only the back of her head for after he says "see what" so I have no clue if she was saddened or not so I was just going by the way she said the last sentence, two word sentences stated while walking away from him.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "keep reading" bit sounded rather positive to me. I don't think she's too disappointed. I think she's hopeful.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, it's more she sees this structure at work upon which many things are built.

You don't have to believe that it is true outside of Sinfest, but since Tat strongly supports feminism via his comic, it makes little sense for him to tuck coded messages about how feminists are confused and mistaken.

I also think it s hopeful. I think she might ave been asking, "So where are you in the baggage unpacking path?" He may or may not cometo see what she sees now, and she can probably remember when she first started learning too
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Vancore



Joined: 18 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Rune wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
I think it is basically about how some people miss the point even if they are actively trying.


I felt it was a bit more hopeful than that. I imagine 'Nique is still smiling as she politely goes on her way, happy that someone else is looking into the matter of their own accord, and content to let Crim come to his own awakening in his own time, with just that subtle encouragement to keep reading, and he'll see.


That makes sense. I meant mostly that enthusiasm doesn't automatically mean somone will get it. Crim is smart, though, so I don't think he'll stay where he is and reach for easy answers.


Awaken to what? It seems he already sees the matrix and the way he perceives it is different then others. So when Nique asks him if he sees anything what he sees has to do with his own viewpoint, not one made by someone else. And that viewpoint is pretty general, and its defiantly not tainted by the patriarchy, at least not currently. Unless noticing different genders at all is part of patriarchy.

So, what does he have to awaken to? What exactly did you want him to say? or do? Was the way he views the world not enough?
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
No, it's more she sees this structure at work upon which many things are built.

You don't have to believe that it is true outside of Sinfest, but since Tat strongly supports feminism via his comic, it makes little sense for him to tuck coded messages about how feminists are confused and mistaken.

I also think it s hopeful. I think she might ave been asking, "So where are you in the baggage unpacking path?" He may or may not cometo see what she sees now, and she can probably remember when she first started learning too


Oh, nono, I'm sorry I wasn't thinking there was a coded message about feminist being confused and mistaken, I meant more of one member focusing too much on people "seeing the problem" and not being happy that there are people who don't see a problem but in their actions are supporting their cause.

I think this term put it best, when someone is focusing so much on "seeing the problems" could be related to a Christian that is only caring about people seeing Christianity as the only way. People like that were called, in my family at least, "too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good". I was wondering if monique is becoming too focused that people aren't seeing the matrix, rather than actually being encouraged that Crim could be a potential ally even though he doesn't see it.
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redshirt26



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, good. They are going after the real source of the Patriarchy: Criminy.

Seriously though, I am curious on how Xanthe and her allies view Crim. Do they consider him a reasonable person or do they dismiss him because he is guilty of being a guy.
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crayven



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you brain fucked yet, Crimny?
Oh not yet?...Keep reading lol.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
Quote:
which it is the goal of mankind to ultimately awake from?


Unless of course humanity changes its mind and decides that its goal is to experience the sensation of eating sweet, juicy steak.

But in all seriousness.

The Matrix and its codes form the fabric of the virtual world people experience, and go through their lives in (except for those who awake), to the benefit of the machines farming them.

The code in Sinfest, however, is not the programming of a virtual reality that the characters are experiencing; it is not the programming of their world.

It is the programming of The Patriarchy, which acts more as a tool to brainwash and control behavior.

If you were to tear down The Matrix, everyone in the (percieved) world would wake up to a totally different reality, in which they live in capsules filled with red gelatinous ooze and have holes in their skulls.

If you were to tear down The Patriarchy, people would simply have different notions of how they ought to interact with each other, perceive gender, and arrange society.

So, er- it's not so ridiculous that gender binary is the underpinning of reality, because, well... the Patriarchy code isn't the underpinning of reality.


Plus there's the take/argument that, given the history of the series (if The Animatrix is to be believed), the robots are, if not the good guys, at least.. not entirely unreasonable in what they've done.

"Holy crap, we have sapience! We're sapient! Hey, we want equal rights, could you gu-"

*MASS FREAKOUT OH GOD START SHUTTING THEM ALL DOWN*

"... Right. Fuck you guys. We're going to go live in a fucking inhospitable desert, then. Enjoy your shit lives."

*WE NUKE THEM*

".. RIGHT THEN."

*War*

*Losing the war, humanity decides to BLOT OUT THE SUN to try and stop them! Which is mentioned in the matrix itself!*

"WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? Jesus! Fuck, we can't even leave you OUT! Fine, fuck, here is a paradise virtual reality so you can't fuck up more things. And because we need you to survive now." (Note: Pretty sure that the *original* use of humans was for squishy processing power, as there were certain tasks our meatbrains were better at-some of which was used to fuel the matrix itself! Which was why being aware of it allowed some control: You were *one* of the processors in the system. ... This was deemed too confusing for viewers, and executive-medled into batteries).

*Humans: Grumpy cat "NO."*

"AARRRGGGGHHHHHHH GOD DAMNIT."

/This is simplified and perhaps slightly tweaked for the purpose of humor.
//This in no way implies the patriarchy is justified, and I do not intend to imply that. This is about the matrix, because my brain goes off on off-topic tangents. =)
///These afterwords added because I realize how the post *could be read* with an implied "So the patriarchy is also justified!", which is not the intent.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
No, it's more she sees this structure at work upon which many things are built.

You don't have to believe that it is true outside of Sinfest, but since Tat strongly supports feminism via his comic, it makes little sense for him to tuck coded messages about how feminists are confused and mistaken.

I also think it s hopeful. I think she might ave been asking, "So where are you in the baggage unpacking path?" He may or may not cometo see what she sees now, and she can probably remember when she first started learning too


Oh, nono, I'm sorry I wasn't thinking there was a coded message about feminist being confused and mistaken, I meant more of one member focusing too much on people "seeing the problem" and not being happy that there are people who don't see a problem but in their actions are supporting their cause.

I think this term put it best, when someone is focusing so much on "seeing the problems" could be related to a Christian that is only caring about people seeing Christianity as the only way. People like that were called, in my family at least, "too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good". I was wondering if monique is becoming too focused that people aren't seeing the matrix, rather than actually being encouraged that Crim could be a potential ally even though he doesn't see it.


It's like asking if someone can see the dying people in the street that everyone else just steps over and never notices.

I don't think she's denigrating him. When he said he didn't see what she sees, she just walked on by, telling him to keep reading. Didn't try to convince him or drag him to her side.

Crim is nice and polite, and doesn't have the same bacjground as the women characters of Sinfest. But he doesn't engage in the same stuff other people like Slick and Sam do. I wonder how he has avoided that. He seems pretty calm and chill, as if nothing bad has ever happened to him - but in the past he's had no problem digging his way to hell or dealing with an unexpected demon book. Maybe his reading helps protect him.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
It's like asking if someone can see the dying people in the street that everyone else just steps over and never notices.

I don't think she's denigrating him. When he said he didn't see what she sees, she just walked on by, telling him to keep reading. Didn't try to convince him or drag him to her side.

Crim is nice and polite, and doesn't have the same bacjground as the women characters of Sinfest. But he doesn't engage in the same stuff other people like Slick and Sam do. I wonder how he has avoided that. He seems pretty calm and chill, as if nothing bad has ever happened to him - but in the past he's had no problem digging his way to hell or dealing with an unexpected demon book. Maybe his reading helps protect him.


Ah, that's a good way of seeing it, not trying to convince him and coming to his own conclusion.

I was seeing it more as "He can't see the matrix yet, I can't really associate or expect help form him until he does."
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ChastMastr



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaaaaa!! I just want to know what happens next with Seymour and Lil'E!!! Poor Lil'E!!!
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
Istancow wrote:
Quote:
which it is the goal of mankind to ultimately awake from?


Unless of course humanity changes its mind and decides that its goal is to experience the sensation of eating sweet, juicy steak.

But in all seriousness.

The Matrix and its codes form the fabric of the virtual world people experience, and go through their lives in (except for those who awake), to the benefit of the machines farming them.

The code in Sinfest, however, is not the programming of a virtual reality that the characters are experiencing; it is not the programming of their world.

It is the programming of The Patriarchy, which acts more as a tool to brainwash and control behavior.

If you were to tear down The Matrix, everyone in the (percieved) world would wake up to a totally different reality, in which they live in capsules filled with red gelatinous ooze and have holes in their skulls.

If you were to tear down The Patriarchy, people would simply have different notions of how they ought to interact with each other, perceive gender, and arrange society.

So, er- it's not so ridiculous that gender binary is the underpinning of reality, because, well... the Patriarchy code isn't the underpinning of reality.


Plus there's the take/argument that, given the history of the series (if The Animatrix is to be believed), the robots are, if not the good guys, at least.. not entirely unreasonable in what they've done.


Which is where the analogy completely ceases to be useful, because women didn't do anything to deserve or antagonize patriarchy, yo.

The goal in the movies was still to wake up from the artificial construction.

It would be a good thing for our society to wake up from the artificial construction of patriarchy, regardless what the media parallels and parodies you can use to illustrate the concept are.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Felgraf wrote:
Istancow wrote:
Quote:
which it is the goal of mankind to ultimately awake from?


Unless of course humanity changes its mind and decides that its goal is to experience the sensation of eating sweet, juicy steak.

But in all seriousness.

The Matrix and its codes form the fabric of the virtual world people experience, and go through their lives in (except for those who awake), to the benefit of the machines farming them.

The code in Sinfest, however, is not the programming of a virtual reality that the characters are experiencing; it is not the programming of their world.

It is the programming of The Patriarchy, which acts more as a tool to brainwash and control behavior.

If you were to tear down The Matrix, everyone in the (percieved) world would wake up to a totally different reality, in which they live in capsules filled with red gelatinous ooze and have holes in their skulls.

If you were to tear down The Patriarchy, people would simply have different notions of how they ought to interact with each other, perceive gender, and arrange society.

So, er- it's not so ridiculous that gender binary is the underpinning of reality, because, well... the Patriarchy code isn't the underpinning of reality.


Plus there's the take/argument that, given the history of the series (if The Animatrix is to be believed), the robots are, if not the good guys, at least.. not entirely unreasonable in what they've done.


Which is where the analogy completely ceases to be useful, because women didn't do anything to deserve or antagonize patriarchy, yo.

The goal in the movies was still to wake up from the artificial construction.

It would be a good thing for our society to wake up from the artificial construction of patriarchy, regardless what the media parallels and parodies you can use to illustrate the concept are.


Agreed.

/Hence all the caveats and slashies at the end of my previous post.
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-Ed, from Digger
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