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What's a dudebro? How would you define it?
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: What's a dudebro? How would you define it? Reply with quote

Micius wrote:
...but this is where you lose me. A lot of people just happen to be nice without expecting anything. You may say "But these 'nice guys' are expecting something," however some of them may legitimately be nice guys and then go into the 'women not "working" the way they're supposed to,' so I think you may have been overly general.


Okay, not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that some guys start off being legit nice and then suddenly morph into woman-blaming whiners as soon as they don't get what they want?

If so, explain to me how that is, in any way, actually legit nice, and not just a man-boy holding his own decent behavior hostage to try and get what he wants, like a toddler holding his breath.

Legit nice does not treat the other sex like a game to be played and won. Legit nice is not a nice which is contingent upon getting what one wants. Legit nice does not feel entitled to have a particular romantic interest and then feel cheated when it doesn't get it. Legit nice does not blame broad groups of other people for its own social failings.

If you're blaming women for not working the way you want, or for not responding the way you want to the behaviors you want them to respond to, ignoring all else . . . you're not legit nice. If you're doing those things, then you are entitled and manipulative, and possibly emotionally abusive as well.

If you're doing those things, chances are you don't get rejected because women "don't like nice guys," but because women generally don't want to date The Incredible Sulk, and have to nanny someone else's insecurities by being sexy for them.

If you're doing those things, then you need to fix you, and stop whining about women, because you are NOT being legit nice.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: What's a dudebro? How would you define it? Reply with quote

Micius wrote:
I think the trouble with most self proclaimed 'nice guys' are that they do not chase 'nice girls.' I think it is overly simplistic to say the only reason they are nice is to up their chances of getting laid or somesuch. A lot of 'nice guys' happen to have a hard on for 'bitches.' I am a self proclaimed 'nice guy' myself and happen to be with a 'nice girl,' and I find myself frequently face-palming when said self proclaimed 'nice guys' only find a girl attractive because of appearance or proximity. I think of it being more of an issue of shallowness than sexism.


But that shallowness IS sexism. It is an inability to approach the opposite sex as whole human beings, rather than as this or that collection of desirable parts to be somehow earned or won, regardless of who the girl is and what she wants.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what I've seen of Jenna Marbles in the past annoyed me, even when I agreed with her, so I will not be clicking on that link
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Micius



Joined: 09 May 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: What's a dudebro? How would you define it? Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Okay, not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that some guys start off being legit nice and then suddenly morph into woman-blaming whiners as soon as they don't get what they want?
I am saying that some people are nice and remain nice, but complain in outlets they believe themselves to be anonymous in about how their good deeds never get them anywhere (without the act, intention or threat of stopping being nice). I suggest that in such outlets, like the internet, they often turn to blaming the person who is not rewarding them. I suggest that they reach such an outcome because they have either overemphasized their own good qualities or expect to receive something from someone they shouldn't expect it from.
Rune wrote:
If so, explain to me how that is, in any way, actually legit nice, and not just a man-boy holding his own decent behavior hostage to try and get what he wants, like a toddler holding his breath.
I am suggesting that some legit nice people whine on the internet about never getting what they feel they deserve if they don't get it, so I guess that is what I am suggesting. The difference between a 'legit nice person' and a 'person being nice for reward' being that a 'legit nice person' is nice because they are nice and a 'person being nice for reward' are naturally not nice. What a 'legit nice person' wouldn't cease to be nice, threaten to stop being nice or intend to stop being nice. That would be the difference between a whining toddler and a 'legit nice person.'
Rune wrote:
Legit nice does not treat the other sex like a game to be played and won. Legit nice is not a nice which is contingent upon getting what one wants.
I agree.
Rune wrote:
Legit nice does not feel entitled to have a particular romantic interest and then feel cheated when it doesn't get it.
I may be in disagreement depending on whom you are referring to when you say 'particular romantic interest.' If you mean a particular individual they have decided should like them, then yeah, I agree. If you mean any desirable companion, then I disagree. Imagine feeling you are a desirable companion and have been unable to find anyone who appreciates you. Seems like something you might vent about on the internet.
Rune wrote:
Legit nice does not blame broad groups of other people for its own social failings.
Well... I feel like a legitimately nice person could blame a broad group if that broad group was persecuting them, genocide being the extreme example.
Rune wrote:
If you're blaming women for not working the way you want, or for not responding the way you want to the behaviors you want them to respond to, ignoring all else . . . you're not legit nice. If you're doing those things, then you are entitled and manipulative, and possibly emotionally abusive as well.
I mostly agree.
Rune wrote:
If you're doing those things, chances are you don't get rejected because women "don't like nice guys," but because women generally don't want to date The Incredible Sulk, and have to nanny someone else's insecurities by being sexy for them.
*shrug* there are probably many more explanations than that.
Rune wrote:
If you're doing those things, then you need to fix you, and stop whining about women, because you are NOT being legit nice.
Unsure whether you are referring to me or stating as a hypothetical. I am not doing said things, so I would be confused if you were referring to me.
Rune wrote:
But that shallowness IS sexism. It is an inability to approach the opposite sex as whole human beings, rather than as this or that collection of desirable parts to be somehow earned or won, regardless of who the girl is and what she wants.
Shallowness isn't exclusively present in the heterosexual population, so I am not sure you can argue shallowness as being sexist. I think you misrepresent the category of 'nice guys' who complain about women on the internet when you suggest all think of women as something to be earned or won. It is not difficult to imagine that a person might be frustrated they have not reached a desired outcome when they feel they are doing all the things (by their nature) that they should be doing to reach said desired outcome. Supposedly girls like the quality of being nice, so if you feel you are a nice person and are not liked by girls, you could find yourself wondering why that should be.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So then (nonspecific you) go talk to your buddies about how women just don't like you. They help confirm it is indeed women themselves are the problem, and you all collaborate on a further understanding of why and how women are weird. Then you call the stuff they helped tou learn "things eeryone knows."

Then you go forth into the world, full of ideas. Women are gold diggers, unable to control their emotions except long enough to manipulate someone. You whine about how they want alpa ales and an't see what a nice, swell guy you are.
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Micius



Joined: 09 May 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
So then (nonspecific you) go talk to your buddies about how women just don't like you. They help confirm it is indeed women themselves are the problem, and you all collaborate on a further understanding of why and how women are weird. Then you call the stuff they helped tou learn "things eeryone knows."

Then you go forth into the world, full of ideas. Women are gold diggers, unable to control their emotions except long enough to manipulate someone. You whine about how they want alpa ales and an't see what a nice, swell guy you are.
That sounds about right, though not all such individuals will go consult buddies, some will consult strangers; not all will develop such negative opinions of women, even though they may blame them for not seeking a desirable candidate such as themselves; most will develop a belief that women are irrational creatures based on them "not seeking out the people they should be seeking out."
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you agree it is possible for someone to be nice for a reward, waiting and scheming like an ambush predator? And then revealing their true olors if they are rejected? Not all, but some?
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: What's a dudebro? How would you define it? Reply with quote

Micius wrote:
Rune wrote:
Okay, not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that some guys start off being legit nice and then suddenly morph into woman-blaming whiners as soon as they don't get what they want?
I am saying that some people are nice and remain nice, but complain in outlets they believe themselves to be anonymous in about how their good deeds never get them anywhere (without the act, intention or threat of stopping being nice). I suggest that in such outlets, like the internet, they often turn to blaming the person who is not rewarding them. I suggest that they reach such an outcome because they have either overemphasized their own good qualities or expect to receive something from someone they shouldn't expect it from.


This isn't about someone just generally being nice in general general general. This is about how a person treats women. And if they're taking their whine out on an entire gender, then they are not being nice to women. If they're talking just about a single individual, then that might be different, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Quote:
Rune wrote:
If so, explain to me how that is, in any way, actually legit nice, and not just a man-boy holding his own decent behavior hostage to try and get what he wants, like a toddler holding his breath.
I am suggesting that some legit nice people whine on the internet about never getting what they feel they deserve if they don't get it, so I guess that is what I am suggesting. The difference between a 'legit nice person' and a 'person being nice for reward' being that a 'legit nice person' is nice because they are nice and a 'person being nice for reward' are naturally not nice. What a 'legit nice person' wouldn't cease to be nice, threaten to stop being nice or intend to stop being nice. That would be the difference between a whining toddler and a 'legit nice person.'


You didn't answer my question. Turning to that kind of whining blame of an entire gender for one's own social ills is NOT NICE. Doing that particular action, in and of itself, belies the "nice" claim. They are not being nice, by talking down and blaming women like that. Maybe they still have other good qualities and are probably still genuinely good people for the most part, but they tarnish their own "nice guy" badge by the very act of whining that it's not currency enough to get them what they want from women. How many more times do I have to say it to make it clear? That kind of wanking is NOT NICE. Understandable, maybe, but since "nice" is the issue, let's be clear about this, okay? Bashing women on the internet or the locker-room or whatever "guy space" the guy thinks is okay for that sort of thing is NOT NICE.

Quote:
Rune wrote:
Legit nice does not treat the other sex like a game to be played and won. Legit nice is not a nice which is contingent upon getting what one wants.
I agree.


I'm glad you agree with the principle. Do you know what it looks like in practice?

Quote:
Rune wrote:
Legit nice does not feel entitled to have a particular romantic interest and then feel cheated when it doesn't get it.
I may be in disagreement depending on whom you are referring to when you say 'particular romantic interest.' If you mean a particular individual they have decided should like them, then yeah, I agree. If you mean any desirable companion, then I disagree. Imagine feeling you are a desirable companion and have been unable to find anyone who appreciates you. Seems like something you might vent about on the internet.


No. No, no, no. I meant particular, but you know what, the key points here were, "entitled," and, "cheated." Nobody, but nobody, has an intrinsic claim to any other person for romance. Most people want it, desire it, and love is a basic human need that I sincerely hope is fulfilled for all who want it. But the feeling of entitlement is the problem here. That goes beyond mere desire, becoming a demand upon the universe. And there's still a problem with the "any desirable companion," because the type that the man desires might not be realistic for him. That's life. Maybe he ought to examine his own desires rather than blame an entire gender for not serving up a dish to his liking. He can blame bad luck, karma, whatever, but blaming women for not being and doing what he wants crosses over the line from nice, to not nice, because doing that is NOT NICE.

Quote:
Rune wrote:
Legit nice does not blame broad groups of other people for its own social failings.
Well... I feel like a legitimately nice person could blame a broad group if that broad group was persecuting them, genocide being the extreme example.


Where did that tangent come from? Are you seriously trying to claim that there are men out there who the entirety of female kind are persecuting? What the hell does genocide have to do with an individual man getting shot down socially? Nothing. That's what. A man getting shot down socially by a woman is an individual experiencing an individual rejection. This may happen to him multiple times, but it is still just a collection of individual rejections, not some broad persecution, and it's absolutely ridiculous to try to put them in the same category. Blaming an entire group of people for persecuting you because you can't get laid is NOT NICE.

Quote:
Rune wrote:
If you're blaming women for not working the way you want, or for not responding the way you want to the behaviors you want them to respond to, ignoring all else . . . you're not legit nice. If you're doing those things, then you are entitled and manipulative, and possibly emotionally abusive as well.
I mostly agree.


Yet you just defended those behaviors multiple times.

Quote:
Rune wrote:
If you're doing those things, chances are you don't get rejected because women "don't like nice guys," but because women generally don't want to date The Incredible Sulk, and have to nanny someone else's insecurities by being sexy for them.
*shrug* there are probably many more explanations than that.


Right. She could not like your breath, or your taste in clothing or movies, or certain habits, or the size of your paycheck, or the size of your . . . paycheck, or how you treat her, or she finds you boring, or she's got another interest lined up, or she's just plain not into you. NONE of those things is "women" being a problem and not giving up what Mr Nice Guy rightly deserves. That's just another person being a person with their own desires. And the man taking it as an affront to his rightful claim to sexy times, or feeling cheated out of his rightful claim to sexy times, is NOT NICE. (Do you get the theme here?)

Quote:
Rune wrote:
If you're doing those things, then you need to fix you, and stop whining about women, because you are NOT being legit nice.
Unsure whether you are referring to me or stating as a hypothetical. I am not doing said things, so I would be confused if you were referring to me.


Hypothetical you, with an "if." Any you. If you're doing those things, stop it. If not, great. If someone else is, they need to stop it. Not that complicated.

Quote:
Rune wrote:
But that shallowness IS sexism. It is an inability to approach the opposite sex as whole human beings, rather than as this or that collection of desirable parts to be somehow earned or won, regardless of who the girl is and what she wants.


Shallowness isn't exclusively present in the heterosexual population, so I am not sure you can argue shallowness as being sexist. I think you misrepresent the category of 'nice guys' who complain about women on the internet when you suggest all think of women as something to be earned or won. It is not difficult to imagine that a person might be frustrated they have not reached a desired outcome when they feel they are doing all the things (by their nature) that they should be doing to reach said desired outcome. Supposedly girls like the quality of being nice, so if you feel you are a nice person and are not liked by girls, you could find yourself wondering why that should be.


I didn't say that shallowness in general was sexism. I said "that" shallowness, the kind that you described in the post that I was responding to, and then further elucidated in my reply.

And the rest of your attempted distinction is bogus. Men who complain about women (a a class of people who just won't give him what he wants) on the internet in the entitled manner described are, by that very action, treating women as an entitlement. This is not about complaining about a particular sucky situation, or being sad that an individual just wasn't that into you. I covered that on square one, but you keep trying to drag this into something more general. Someone who experienced rejection absolutely can feel sad about it and talk about it. But once you start blaming women for not giving you what you deserve for being nice, then YOU'RE NOT BEING NICE. If you're doing that, then you need to find a different framing for your complaint that doesn't drag an entire gender through the mud in order to make you feel less crappy about social rejection, because doing that is NOT NICE.

And since "nice" is the whole point, that's kind of the end of the story, right there. If you are doing NOT NICE things, then you are not being a legit nice guy. Period.
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MerchManDan



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
what I've seen of Jenna Marbles in the past annoyed me, even when I agreed with her, so I will not be clicking on that link
For what it's worth, I watched the video. She rips Nice Guys to shreds. Worth a look, for those who'd be interested in such a thing.
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Zhuinden



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: What's a dudebro? How would you define it? Reply with quote

Rune wrote:

This isn't about someone just generally being nice in general general general. This is about how a person treats women. And if they're taking their whine out on an entire gender, then they are not being nice to women. If they're talking just about a single individual, then that might be different, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Turning to that kind of whining blame of an entire gender for one's own social ills is NOT NICE. Doing that particular action, in and of itself, belies the "nice" claim. Bashing women on the internet or the locker-room or whatever "guy space" the guy thinks is okay for that sort of thing is NOT NICE.

Nobody, but nobody, has an intrinsic claim to any other person for romance. Most people want it, desire it, and love is a basic human need that I sincerely hope is fulfilled for all who want it. But the feeling of entitlement is the problem here. That goes beyond mere desire, becoming a demand upon the universe. Maybe he ought to examine his own desires rather than blame an entire gender for not serving up a dish to his liking. Blaming women for not being and doing what he wants, that is NOT NICE.

Quote:
Rune wrote:
Legit nice does not blame broad groups of other people for its own social failings.
Well... I feel like a legitimately nice person could blame a broad group if that broad group was persecuting them, genocide being the extreme example.


What the hell does genocide have to do with an individual man getting shot down socially? Nothing. That's what. A man getting shot down socially by a woman is an individual experiencing an individual rejection. This may happen to him multiple times, but it is still just a collection of individual rejections, not some broad persecution, and it's absolutely ridiculous to try to put them in the same category. Blaming an entire group of people for persecuting you because you can't get laid is NOT NICE.

That's just another person being a person with their own desires. And the man taking it as an affront to his rightful claim to sexy times, or feeling cheated out of his rightful claim to sexy times, is NOT NICE. (Do you get the theme here?)

And since "nice" is the whole point, that's kind of the end of the story, right there. If you are doing NOT NICE things, then you are not being a legit nice guy. Period.


I absolutely applaud to this. That perfectly dissects the problems with this type of "nice guys", which is in essence that a guy demands of a girl to be in a relationship with him just because he's attracted to her, tries to manipulate her into liking him by being 'nice' to her, and if all that fails, he goes on a quest of ravaging on how women in "general" don't do what he's expecting them to do, and this just proves that 'women' don't like him because they only like 'jerks', who is basically anyone who is not him. Thus, removing any sort of need for introspection, because it's the women's fault how they don't see how perfect the guy would be for them, and how dumb they are for turning down such an opportunity.



I wanted to add, that the action of starting to blame the general, collective gender group of Women is not just 'not nice', but utterly ridiculous, unspeakably stupid and I'd say is an example of being a complete social retard. I'd say that the very moment you start blaming "Women" for your rejections, you're being a fucking idiot.

Why? Because it's ALWAYS on the level of two individuals, thus attempting to generalize this into a concept about how females don't react the way you expect them to is basically shallow, sexist, shows that you have no intention of looking further in a 'romantic' interest than having sex with them merely because they are female, and apart from being conceptually misogynistic, you completely disregard the fact that the people you've been rejected by are not just walking sexbuckets for your penis to go in, but they are real, living people just like you.

And just because their gender is different, that is absolutely no valid reason for you to not take their perspective into view, to use your empathy, and be capable of being understanding towards them.

TL;DR if you blame 'women' as a general group, you're being a fucking idiot - because individuals' choices have nothing to do with the fact that these people have vaginas. And you're just a hate-spewing volcano for no legitimate reason, instead of using your empathy for once to understand the situation.



Rune, you seem to know an awful lot about this kind of behavior, and the inner workings behind it. I say awful, because this implies you've had numerous encounters with this type of behavior throughout the past, otherwise you wouldn't be able to see it so clearly. Is that true? Have you met a lot of people like this? I'm curious.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: What's a dudebro? How would you define it? Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
Rune, you seem to know an awful lot about this kind of behavior, and the inner workings behind it. I say awful, because this implies you've had numerous encounters with this type of behavior throughout the past, otherwise you wouldn't be able to see it so clearly. Is that true? Have you met a lot of people like this? I'm curious.


Only a couple of times, personally, and I learned from the first one, so the second one is a wonderfully short and uninteresting story because it ended quickly. And I am currently very happily married to a legit nice guy, and it's awesome. I even won the in-laws lottery on that one, because his family are all cool people who love me. So, there's no need to feel sorry for me, personally, at all.

However, I have seen far too many friends go through nice-guy-related nightmares, including several worst-case scenarios that escalated through several stages of abuse right up to rape. It kind of leaves an impression when an old High School friend who you haven't seen since her wedding shows up at your front door with a black eye from her "Nice Guy" husband who was "just fine" until he wasn't. It kind of leaves an impression when you see your aunt and cousins dealing constantly with the fallout, abuse, and manipulation, from living their lives with a complete narcissist, if not sociopath, who was very, very good at convincing people that he is a "nice guy."

Those are worst-case scenarios, but I live in an area where "nice guys" abound, at least in part because the predominant local religion breeds them, (and adds "churchy" to the male-entitlement list, as well as putting the weight of God behind their feeling of entitlement to a mate. "I'm nice, I have a pulse, I go to church, why don't women liiiiiike meeeeeeeee? I just want to get maaaaaarried like God wants me to! I go to church, I deseeeerrrrve it!") A few of my friends are "nice guys," and I've seen up close how their thinking goes.

Also, dissecting this behavior, expectation, and the problems it causes within the local culture is one of the things that a local feminist group I'm a member of focuses on, because the local culture is a breeding ground for manipulation and abuse, and conditions women to accept it and to sublimate themselves to be what the "nice guys" "deserve." Being able to identify and pick out these kinds of behaviors is something that often helps those who have been abused, manipulated, or conditioned by them recover, recover their sense of self, and actually go on to have healthy relationships with legit nice people, and sometimes helps the "nice guys" realize that their stance towards women is broken, and get some healing done, themselves.
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Zhuinden



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to hear the first part Very Happy

It's so surprising to see how if you look at it, it's directly and easily can be expected that this sort of thinking would happen, under these conditions. What sucks is that no one attempts to prevent them until it's too late, and apparently they don't notice what the problem is themselves either.
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