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2013-06-15: Socially Constructed
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Tekii



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:34 am    Post subject: 2013-06-15: Socially Constructed Reply with quote

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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...I find this scenario really interesting. Crim has always been presented as one of the paragons of good of the comic. It's weird that he's shown as misguided in a scenario where the Patriarchy is literally represented as the source of evil (at least the Devil doesn't seem to have anything better to do than ensuring its persistence.)
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
...I find this scenario really interesting. Crim has always been presented as one of the paragons of good of the comic. It's weird that he's shown as misguided in a scenario where the Patriarchy is literally represented as the source of evil (at least the Devil doesn't seem to have anything better to do than ensuring its persistence.)

How do you mean misguided? He's just learning new things from the feminist book and the devil (patriarchy) book doesn't like it so they fight. I mean, I guess if by misguided you mean "unaware of these things previously". No one starts out by being aware of the patriarchy and structural inequality so I don't think it's meant to say he isn't a paragon of good. If anything I'd say the fact that he is good is about to get reinforced, because he's going to accept what he's learned and probably try to put it to use in his everyday life.
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aboutwhistles



Joined: 28 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A key aspect of privilege is that those who are privileged are not aware of it, or at least not of the extent of it. Crim as a straight white male was a good person within the world as he understood it. Now his understanding of the world is changing. Whether he stays a good person is up to him and how he reacts to this new knowledge. I feel pretty good about his odds of picking justice over ignorance.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aboutwhistles wrote:
A key aspect of privilege is that those who are privileged are not aware of it, or at least not of the extent of it. Crim as a straight white male was a good person within the world as he understood it. Now his understanding of the world is changing. Whether he stays a good person is up to him and how he reacts to this new knowledge. I feel pretty good about his odds of picking justice over ignorance.

Excellent point right here. I guess the moral value of people isn't really defined by what they know about life, people and society, but by how they react to such knowledge.

Edit: Also, Ennis had a very similar answer. Not meaning to cheapen yours, just read whistles' last.
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Last edited by Leohan on Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Maswartz



Joined: 15 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh please don't drag him into the sisterhood storyline mess...
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Homeslice



Joined: 17 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instead of picking between continuing his life as is or realizing that there is still sexism left in the world,


Crim should just start an underground book fighting ring.

Put my money on the feminist-devil book.
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Last edited by Homeslice on Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Night Spade



Joined: 13 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the Devil Book is just jealous/tsundere towards the Fem Book.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maswartz wrote:
Oh please don't drag him into the sisterhood storyline mess...

Yep...this thread could be a good one.

Not to mention the whole Nature vs Learned Behavior argument I'm sure is coming.
Night Spade wrote:
Maybe the Devil Book is just jealous/tsundere towards the Fem Book.

Also there's that unique twist the debate could take! Welcoming all contenders!! Let'sss gettt readdddyyy to RUUUUMBBBBBLLLLLEEE!!!
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Homeslice



Joined: 17 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but I'm sticking strong with "he should host book fights".
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MerchManDan



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. This might be the highest form of cognitive dissonance ever.
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almost a shame to waste dennis' talent on him.
except it's always a pleasure to see a good dennis insult.
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maswartz wrote:
Oh please don't drag him into the sisterhood storyline mess...


i dont understand how you could possibly NOT want him to get involved in the sisterhood situation because like omg

a straight, white cis male* who is genuinely a good and sweet person and would serve as a physical reminder to her that she's fighting for them too - she's literally said that the patriarchy effects men negatively too. and while i'm sure she hasn't really forgotten that, its possible that sometimes she might loose sight of that based on the fact that pretty much a lot of the dudes she interacts with are kind of... not really that great of people. the only dude shes really interacted with who isn't straight-up a dick is gay guy, and well, it's sort of implied that he might be family, but she doesn't really get to interact with him often. so in general, lots of negative interactions with men... so she might sometimes lose sight of the fact that the patriarchy hurts them too. its easy to lose sight of that when they keep hurting you. but crim - he's kindness incarnate. he's sweet and generous, and very brave. he's an embodiment of a lot of the best traits in a person! the fact that he exists could very well serve as a reminder to her - to everyone in the sisterhood - that they're still worth fighting for too.

we're of course, meant to sympathize with the sisterhood - and i most certainly do! i agree with the majority of their beliefs, and they tend to hold a lot of merit and a lot of strips in which they are featured in hit home for me - but we don't exactly get to see them interacting with the cast very often. and having them interact with the cast more often is kind of essential to further cementing them as characters - as PEOPLE - within the strip. sure, xanthe has spoken to most of the cast at least once and nana has gifted most of the cast in one way another, but how often do they really do so? sure, she interacts with slick most often out of anyone in the cast, but we rarely get to see her chatting with anyone who would be considerably worth her time. she's rarely given the opportunity to interact with the main cast outside of slick, let alone any of the Good Dudes of the comic. and seeing xanthe be given the opportunity to interact with someone - someone who is a DUDE, and literally one of the most positive forces in the comic - is definitely good for her as a character. to give her the chance to have more positive interactions with the main cast will further cement her as a character, help her find her individuality, broaden her horizons and potential, characterization, and can serve as showing us that she's an admirable character rather than telling us.

although i love the sisterhood, and i love xanthe, i can't pretend that i don't see tat trying to assert that she's admirable - fighting for feminism is noble and i respect that shit, and i admire it, and i admire her - but falling short in terms of characterization. which isn't his fault - he has Lots And Lots Of Fucking Characters so sometimes balancing them all and characterizing them all evenly cannot be a simple task - but constantly showing us xanthe doing incredible feats in an attempt to tell us that she's way cool isn't the best course of option, i'll admit. but this presents the opportunity to show us that she's pretty cool rather than telling us with incredible feats of bravado. showing us xanthe interacting with crim in a positive manner is good for xanthe--

--and really, lets be honest here - it's good for crim too! he hasn't been that relevant lately nor has he appeared all that frequently in a while and when he does get the chance to appear here and there - he doesn't really get to do much anymore and this serves as a functional way to get him involved again, as well as get him up to speed in being the standard Best Dude In The Entire Comic. plus, i mean, i thought you guys wanted more dudes being portrayed positively in regards to the whole issue? what, you don't want the comic to acknowledge that Genuinely Good Dudes That Are All Up For Feminism Actually Exist anymore?

(* as far as we know, anyways.)(its late. im getting talkative and stupid. i should go,,,)

Night Spade wrote:
Maybe the Devil Book is just jealous/tsundere towards the Fem Book.


dude



duuuude...
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Flavius Maximus



Joined: 07 May 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demon books, they have been fighting forever.

They were just having a rest

Round 2-- FIGHT!
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont want to start a fight, but will throw this out here and accept anyone's counter arguements.

I believe that it would have been better, to say, your new knowledge is in conflict with your old knowledge, it is up to you to decide Which is true.

Here she basically said that biology, one of the main reasons our species continued to today, suddenly has no effect in modern society views. Or at least say that to believe biology does affect modern society in this way at all is only an assumption.

This is a very complicated issue, with both sides having knowledge AND assumptions.

For example:The Red Dress Effect

Is red clad women sexually appealing because red has been ingrained in our culture as fertility, or was the ingraining of red as fertility in culture caused because of our biological reaction to turn red when active in a sexual manner.

That's just my two cents, both sides make very much sense.
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well neither xanthe nor have the demon feminist book have really said anything to convey a belief that biology has no effect at all - it's however implying that in this case it doesnt really hold to water.

biology does effect some things, of course, i don't think i'm qualified to discuss the extent to which it does, however, but it's got it's say. but like, ... seeing women as ... lesser than men, and devaluing and demonizing femininity, isn't a biological thing.

it's not a biological thing to decide anyone is lesser than anyone else - it's not really a biological thing to devalue anyone who isn't in power. not for humans, anyway. it's a socially constructed, learned behavior kind of thing.
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