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What is transgender?
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3318
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:

Now I'm glad this comic was drawn, this sums things up.

Now after 3 hours of sleep - overall, all you need to accept is that 'gender' is a spectrum and not just 'male'/'female', and that there are people in this world who are born with a body that they are in complete dissonance with due to their sex not being the same as their gender, and as a result can't be congruent to either gender's expectations, and are fighting to become the gender they feel they were meant to me?

That isn't so hard. How on earth does this promote violence against them, and why do feminists and some larger LGBT groups prosecute them? I don't get it.


'Meant to be' is bad phrasing, as is 'want to be' and any similar thing. Anything that does not explicitly say, 'This trans person is (whatever gender they identify with)" should be avoided.

Regarding the queer community and trans people who are transitioning with surgery, once upon a time there was even more gatekeeping for hormones and surgery than there is today. Doctors would approve trans people for transition related stuff based on crappy criteria, like whether they would look attractive after transition, whether their story fit perfectly (There could be no wibbly-wobblyness, all FtMs had to say, 'I played with boy toys and consistently told my parents I was a boy.'), and whether they were heterosexual. They had to really prove that they were heterosexual. This effort has contributed to the idea that trans people are homophobic.

Another reason is the attempt to look normal. A way to try and be perceived as normal is to point at those people over there and say, "They are the degenerate freaks. I am an upstanding person, and at least I'm not like them." This mindset happens both ways. The first trans website I ever went to had a note about gayness, which basically said, "No, we trans people hate the gays as much or more as you other straight people do!"

And then there is appropriating history. Trans people get thrown under the bus when it comes time to making progressive laws, with gay people saying, "Oh we'll come back for you!" or "Why are trans people even in this movement, because being gay has nothing to do with being trans?" or "Trans people are trying to ride on our coat tails, having done no work whatsoever and expecting rewards."

That last one is especially aggravating, because trans people and drag queens have been doing a hell of a lot of fighting for queer rights. They were right there in Stonewall. Mainstream queer activists trying to appear as 'normal, upright, moral citizens' tried to erase what trans people and drag queens did. Sylvia Rivera, a black trans person who did a lot of activism, had to fight with gay groups because of erasure.
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Katsuni



Joined: 11 May 2013
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
That isn't so hard. How on earth does this promote violence against them, and why do feminists and some larger LGBT groups prosecute them? I don't get it.

There's actually a lot of reasons for such, I'll try to go over a few quickly, though =3

EDIT: My definition of "quickly" sucks =P

First off, violence is a reaction of fear. How is a trans person scary? Well... we live in a gender-binary world; you're male or you're female, with nothing in between. Anything that shows that not to be the case is problematic because it means that everything you know about gender is wrong, that you may not be the gender you first thought you were.

To make matters worse, it's also based in societal enforcement of gender roles and misogyny.

Trans-men have it a little bit easier since they "pass" easier, and most people don't really question it if they don't. A girl that dresses like a guy? Meh, lots do that. A girl who wants to BE a guy? (Their wording, not mine =P ) Well, obviously, because guys are awesome and women suck, right? So really, no big surprise she'd want to be a man in their reasoning.

Trans-women are where you get almost all of the media hype and the fear and such from. A guy... who wants to give up his male privilege... to be a girl? Holy hell, we can't just explain this away as people wanting to move up the social ladder anymore! Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck... what do we do? Uh... uh... KILL THEM! Yeah, if they're dead, they don't exist, and we can shove it all under the rug! YEAH!

Because, you know, that works >.>;

Except... it kinda does... and they probably won't be convicted for it either >.<

Ugh. Anyway, the matter gets more complex when you get into things like the LGBTQ issue.

The LGB part is all about sexual orientation, the T/Q side of things is purely about your own gender, not the gender of who you're attracted to.

Heck, the LG people don't even really care that much for the bisexual side of things, since the bisexuals make them look bad. It's hard to claim "I was born gay" if the person standing next to you can be both gay and straight at the same time, which implies to people who don't know any better that it's proof that you can just be straight instead of gay.

It's a political thing, mostly, since the same thing happens with trans people and the genderqueer; T/Q's are looked down upon by society, if a law WOULD have passed with LGB-friendly language, it might NOT pass if it has trans-friendly language in there too... in which case they'd rather remove the trans-friendly language and get it passed without them.

Unfortunately, this means that politically, trans people are a liability to the LGBT rights movement and are the first to be thrown under the bus at the first opportunity "just in case".

There are some LGB people who actually do hate trans people, and that mostly ends up being a case of misunderstanding as well. You'd think they'd know better... but yeah. It mostly comes down there to things like "why bother changing gender when you could just be gay?", and it really makes their brain spin when you have a trans person who's gay/lesbian in their transitioned gender =P

Essentially, LGB people largely don't really know anything more about trans people than regular "normal" people do, and often hold the same confused beliefs.

Don't worry though, trans people often dislike LGB people, and cross dressers, and cis-gendered people, and other trans people... actually trans people often wind up a little spiteful ball of hate, sadly, since that's largely what they're subjected to all their lives.

If all you know is hatred and anger towards you for your mere existence, from friends, family, loved ones, your workplace, and even random strangers on the street, it's awfully hard to have much compassion left in you. We're only human, and if you cut us, we do bleed, and if you keep cutting us, every day, for decades, eventually we get it in our head that everyone wants to cut us, or that it's socially acceptable to cut people. It's not pretty.

Not all trans people are like that by any means, but it's a disproportionately large number in every single trans gathering of any kind I've ever been to, from in-person meetings to online forums, it's a fairly consistent trend, and it's not honestly all that surprising. They're not the majority, but there's a lot of trans people who really do hate cis-people, either out of spite, out of a defensive mechanism of "hit them back first", or simply out of fear or jealousy.

The feminists... are probably the worst in the lot, though. As feminism is a political movement, first and foremost, it's concerns are pretty much solely focused upon women's rights.

The problem is, "women that become men" are traitors, and "men that become women" are evil infiltrators seeking to subvert the feminist movement and bring their "magical mystical invisible male energy" to gatherings.

Of course... in practice, neither are true, but the problem is that there are those within the feminist movement who strictly adhere and reinforce much of the crap that feminism is supposed to be against. You see it against lesbians, and against straight women, and against trans-women.

You're not a real woman because you're dating another woman! You're not a real feminist because you actually love a man! You're not a real woman because you didn't grow up as one despite that the person next to me was raised androgynous but ignore the man behind the curtain!

Some of the feminists really, really want to reinforce those gender-based roles, or to simply subvert all of the male roles by having women do both, but men aren't allowed to do women's roles in kind. Unfortunately, when you're dealing with 51% of the population, and 100% of the women, at least a few of them are going to be flat out crazy in there somewhere.

One of the largest complaints by feminists, as bizarre as this will sound, is that a trans-woman may not be "female enough", they don't act feminine enough, they don't dress feminine enough, they don't sound feminine enough... of course, isn't that kind of the exact same bloody stereotypes you're supposedly fighting against?

Then you get into arguments over "who's a REAL feminist" a la http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoTrueScotsman

Unfortunately, feminism has people who are actively working against it's interests from the inside already, and you can blame the patriarchy for that, or just radicals or crazy people, but no matter who you blame, they still exist, and they're often the most vocal and aggressive of the population.

There are feminist women's shelters out there who will not accept a female transgendered rape victim, simply because she "might bring male energy to the area", despite not even being able to define it, or that no one would even know if they didn't tell other women in the shelter.

It doesn't stop there though, those same shelters will also sometimes actively try to abuse their resources to then try to restrain that individual from getting any sort of counseling or help.

It's a sad world we live in, one where some people go out of their way to find an excuse to hate others, but what can you do?
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Zhuinden



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Katsuni wrote:
Zhuinden wrote:
That isn't so hard. How on earth does this promote violence against them, and why do feminists and some larger LGBT groups prosecute them? I don't get it.

First off, violence is a reaction of fear. How is a trans person scary? Well... we live in a gender-binary world; you're male or you're female, with nothing in between. Anything that shows that not to be the case is problematic because it means that everything you know about gender is wrong, that you may not be the gender you first thought you were.

I did write about this in the giga-rambling I edited out instead, but there's one striking oddity to me about transition itself. Although it's true that specific groups of genderqueers are off the pattern, then if you transition from male to female, don't you essentially just move from one group to another, still in the binary, with "nothing in-between"?
Even though you'll probably not be as feminine as the most feminine female on the planet as a MtF trans, you'll still transition from "male to female". In essence, it's still part of the binary split-up, isn't it?
Quote:

To make matters worse, it's also based in societal enforcement of gender roles and misogyny.

Trans-men have it a little bit easier...because guys are awesome and women suck, right?

That is just so stupid.
Quote:
Trans-women are where you get almost all of the media hype and the fear and such from. A guy... who wants to give up his male privilege... to be a girl? uh... KILL THEM!

That is just so stupid.
Yes, I wanted to react the same way to both. This double standard is equally ridiculous - why is it so hard for people to comprehend, that people are PEOPLE - and sex shouldn't matter. Although I'm certain I'm also influenced by whether someone is male or female sex-wise (considering that pinpoints me whether they could count as a romantic interest or not), I still say people should just forget about the stereotypes, and especially attributing an inequal 'value' to gender. And treat each person as their own person.
Quote:

The LGB part is all about sexual orientation, the T/Q side of things is purely about your own gender... that it's proof that you can just be straight instead of gay.

It's a political thing, mostly, since the same thing happens with trans people and the genderqueer; T/Q's are looked down upon by society

Why?
Quote:
"why bother changing gender when you could just be gay?", and it really makes their brain spin when you have a trans person who's gay/lesbian in their transitioned gender =P

Well anyone can tell that you change gender because you're in a quarrel with your own bodily self, and not because of what sex you're trying to sex up with - the source of motivation is you, not others.
Though if we can assume that homosexuality is something you're born with, then being homosexual after transing is just as likely to occur.
Quote:
actually trans people often wind up a little spiteful ball of hate, sadly, since that's largely what they're subjected to all their lives....hatred and anger towards you for your mere existence, from friends, family, loved ones, your workplace, and even random strangers on the street

Why?
Quote:
The feminists... are probably the worst in the lot, though. As feminism is a political movement, first and foremost, it's concerns are pretty much solely focused upon women's rights.

"I'm interested in creating equality as long as I get to be at least as equal as others, but I don't mind being more equal - in fact, screw everyone else" is not a healthy attitude.
Quote:
The problem is, "women that become men" are traitors, and "men that become women" are evil infiltrators seeking to subvert the feminist movement and bring their "magical mystical invisible male energy".

There are feminist women's shelters out there who will not accept a female transgendered rape victim, simply because she "might bring male energy to the area", despite not even being able to define it, or that no one would even know if they didn't tell other women in the shelter.

That is just so stupid. And also irrational, and possibly surreal. Wtf?
Quote:
You're not a real woman because you're dating another woman! You're not a real feminist because you actually love a man!

Last time I checked, feminism was about having the rights to do whatever choices you make - and not about hating men. Misandry does not equal feminism - but I guess they didn't get the memo? Confused
Quote:
Some of the feminists really, really want to reinforce those gender-based roles

I'm guessing that's the kind of person who says they're feminist, but it's the guy's responsibility to pay for the dates they both partake in with consent, and that a girl shouldn't ask out a guy because "that is not traditional".
Quote:
One of the largest complaints by feminists, as bizarre as this will sound, is that a trans-woman may not be "female enough"...isn't that kind of the exact same bloody stereotypes you're supposedly fighting against?

That is just so stupid.
Quote:
Then you get into arguments over "who's a REAL feminist" a la http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoTrueScotsman

I'd say the one who doesn't get involved in THAT fight but rather is more concerned about the equality of people? Very Happy
Quote:
It's a sad world we live in, one where some people go out of their way to find an excuse to hate others, but what can you do?

I've learned it 0th hand (if that's a thing), that you search for excuses to hate others, only if you need to prove to yourself that you are not as bad as you think you are. Because 'you are better than all those groups - as you don't do x, y, z that they do!'
People should learn to be confident in themselves, instead of bringing others down below their damaged personalities shattered in sharp shards.



p.s.: I hope I did create some valid input with my thoughts, provided some questions, and did not create an abomination by splitting up and quoting a block of text to begin with. Rolling Eyes
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Katsuni



Joined: 11 May 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
p.s.: I hope I did create some valid input with my thoughts, provided some questions, and did not create an abomination by splitting up and quoting a block of text to begin with. :roll:

You did, though for the sake of cutting down on space a bit, I'll quote your two most important ones first, and then cover any other notes in a separate post. Yes, it's technically "cheating" for making a smaller post, but I'm trying to cut back and hopefully it'll help me space out my thoughts better rather than rambling on =P


Quote:
1: That is just so stupid.

Yes... yes it is. I mean, we could rant and rave about a number of the things you pointed out as stupid all day, I'm sure, but it doesn't change the fact that you rather sufficiently covered it with "That is just so stupid." and it doesn't honestly need much more than that =P

Quote:
2: Why?

Gawd, sometimes I'd almost like to know myself, then I get a bit worried because I think I'd rather off not know =P

There's likely as many different reasons as there are people; you know, the whole "ask 10 different people and get 11 different answers" dealie.

We could break the question down to simply "Why do people hate each other for any reason at all if they don't even know them?". There's not honestly much of a good answer. There's a lot of potential answers, but none of them really hold up to any sort of scrutiny.
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Zhuinden



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Katsuni wrote:

Quote:
2: Why?

Gawd, sometimes I'd almost like to know myself, then I get a bit worried because I think I'd rather off not know =P

There's likely as many different reasons as there are people; you know, the whole "ask 10 different people and get 11 different answers" dealie.

We could break the question down to simply "Why do people hate each other for any reason at all if they don't even know them?". There's not honestly much of a good answer. There's a lot of potential answers, but none of them really hold up to any sort of scrutiny.


Stereotypes and concepts are a key point, but what I'm specifically more interested in is why even your family would turn against you and even go as far as disavowing you.
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Katsuni



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
3: I did write about this in the giga-rambling I edited out instead, but there's one striking oddity to me about transition itself. Although it's true that specific groups of genderqueers are off the pattern, then if you transition from male to female, don't you essentially just move from one group to another, still in the binary, with "nothing in-between"?

Even though you'll probably not be as feminine as the most feminine female on the planet as a MtF trans, you'll still transition from "male to female". In essence, it's still part of the binary split-up, isn't it?

Depends; it's possible to transition to a point not in the binary options, though that just really confuses the hell out of most onlookers at that point =P

Stating you're like... well, I'm 70% female, and maybe 30% male, or maybe some odd third gender that isn't well defined, or androgynous, is really a lot for most people to wrap their heads around. It's difficult enough as it is to accept "not the right gender", but when that doesn't mean "the OTHER gender", it just blows their minds in most cases.

All things considered, I can kinda see why.

As for the second part of this question, if you go from MtF, you probably won't be the most feminine female on the planet because there can be only one *highlander theme =P *. But seriously, a lot of MtF's are pretty excessively feminine; often moreso than cisgendered women (which, if you missed it, honestly just means you feel you got the right body for your brain), and many transmen are excessively masculine.

Unfortunately, the gender binary and gender roles are really stereotypical, and it's easy for people transitioning to be bullied into being excessively stereotypical to a ridiculous degree, or for them to have ridiculously romanticized stereotypical views of the genders in the first place from dreaming of their "correct" gender for so long that it becomes a twisted abomination. Sometimes, it's even required by the gatekeeper system; essentially, you have barriers to entry where you need things like a written letter of permission from several doctors and psychologists, and they can have some seriously ridiculous requirements before they sign off.

Once upon a time, the gatekeeper system was just... nonsense. Like pure, total nonsense. They measured the most ridiculous criteria, like how much you'd sway your hips when you walked, or how far you'd slouch in a chair when sitting upright, completely bloody well ignoring that both of those are primarily dependent upon the fact that a female's hip structure is slightly different from a male's and is tilted forwards a bit, and the spine curve varies slightly. Yeah, these are doctors, making rules which dictate people's lives, without a basic grasp of anatomy. Scary, huh? Fortunately most of that's been removed, but there's still some rather silly requirements in some areas.

Also, here's a simple example:

Winry Rockbell from Full Metal Alchemist makes a great demonstration piece. She's remarkably feminine and pretty much a "normal girl", but she happens to have an obsession with mechanical limb replacements, and will fawn fangirl style over a replacement arm with a built in gun =P

The thing is, as a cisgendered woman, no problems! Women can do everything men can, no arguments on that matter. If a transwoman happened to want to be an automotive mechanic, however, she gets this weird look like "why do you want to be a girl if you like even a single 'male' thing, or not 100% absolute pure girly-girl stuff?". It's a blatantly obvious double standard.
Quote:
5: Last time I checked, feminism was about having the rights to do whatever choices you make - and not about hating men. Misandry does not equal feminism - but I guess they didn't get the memo?

Yeah... some feminists seem to think it involves everyone conforming to whatever "their personal ideal of what a woman should be".

One can point out "that's not REALLY feminism then, is it?", but again you get into the argument of "not a real scotsman", which tends to make any argument made to be about as effective as trying to nailgun jello to a wall.
Quote:
6: I'm guessing that's the kind of person who says they're feminist, but it's the guy's responsibility to pay for the dates they both partake in with consent, and that a girl shouldn't ask out a guy because "that is not traditional".

I'm not sure myself; I've only met a few of that kind personally, and it mostly led to trying to remove myself from their presence ASAP, so I didn't really ask too many more questions =P

Once they start yelling at people for "not being feminine enough" or "being a traitor", most people just kinda edge slowly away and try to not make eye contact.

Anyway, that was a bit longer than I meant for it to be, but at least it wasn't... too bad... I hope =P
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Katsuni



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
Stereotypes and concepts are a key point, but what I'm specifically more interested in is why even your family would turn against you and even go as far as disavowing you.

Again, lots of reasons. Some are horrified that you might not be the same person they knew "that's not my son/daughter!", some may be embarrassed about the social stigma (I've known a few who had their families abandon them because it made the family look bad... yeah, great familial bond there, huh? ), for some it's a big religious thing like how gay people used to get fired out of the house if they were christian, stuff like that.

It can happen for a lot of reasons. Sometimes they feel their child just "turned out defective or broken", and can't bare to be reminded every time they talk that their child had essentially been a birth defect. Other cases may involve the parents feeling that they did something "wrong" in raising them, that somehow it's their "fault" that their child didn't conform to society's stereotypical standards and if they'd just forced them to play with more dolls as a child, she'd have grown up into the perfect little princess rather than a man.

Ugh, I've heard so many different reasons from different people that it's hard to give any single answer. It does show, however, that "Blood is thicker than water... but only slightly"; blood has a relative density of 1.06 compared to 1.00 for water. In cases like these, you learn all too well that your family may not be as unconditionally loving as you may have first thought.

It also goes to show that the societal bonds we think are ironclad are often anything but. In the end, when you put people on the line, you realize that a horrifyingly large chunk of them really are only out for their own selves. We like to claim that we're all good people, but when push comes to shove, it's amazing how fast people can come up with excuses for their behaviour, how it's not their fault, how all their child has to do to be accepted back into their lives is to lie about who they are just so that their family can feel more comfortable.

If your child swapping genders makes you so uncomfortable that you'd feel MORE comfortable with yourself by disowning them than by their presence, then that's seriously kinda creepy.

It's remarkably common though; it doesn't always happen by any means, but it's far, far too frequent.

I don't know all the potential reasons, but there's a lot of ways we justify this kind of thing to ourselves, and it really kinda jabs you right in your faith in humanity pretty hard.
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Zhuinden



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I have received a great link from a friend of mine: http://queerinkblots.blogspot.hu/2012/09/a-glossary-comments-welcome-as-always.html

I agree with all your points, they are reasonable.

However, I have learned a bit more about this subject, and I think I can tell where transphobia comes in. If you meet someone, who is presumably female, you start dating for example, and like her a lot... And physically, she looks female. Based on her actions, she seems female. However, if after any sort of emotional involvement, I find out that she is actually biological-sexwise male, then there's nothing I can do about that. That's something I wouldn't accept in a relationship - it pretty much discloses sexual compatibility.
And with that in mind, I'm not surprised that people are afraid to encounter such a phenomenon.
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Katsuni



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
And I have received a great link from a friend of mine: http://queerinkblots.blogspot.hu/2012/09/a-glossary-comments-welcome-as-always.html

I agree with all your points, they are reasonable.

However, I have learned a bit more about this subject, and I think I can tell where transphobia comes in. If you meet someone, who is presumably female, you start dating for example, and like her a lot... And physically, she looks female. Based on her actions, she seems female. However, if after any sort of emotional involvement, I find out that she is actually biological-sexwise male, then there's nothing I can do about that. That's something I wouldn't accept in a relationship - it pretty much discloses sexual compatibility.
And with that in mind, I'm not surprised that people are afraid to encounter such a phenomenon.

Yeah, admittedly it's rather deceptive in a bad way. I've made sure to tell anyone I date in advance about the issue as soon as things start to turn potentially serious.

Some people... don't. Admittedly, they have a bit of a point that you should love the person not the genitals, though it does work as a rather handy screen for "you only love me for my body!" types, as you learn pretty fast who is primarily interested in that.

However, that's also a bit misleading as well, as some people may simply not have any interest in sex with a penis or vagina, and without at least some degree of sexual compatibility, it can put a great strain on a relationship.

You're a lot better off telling them early, rather than as a "surprise". Especially since it's currently accepted by the courts as a valid legal defense... seriously, if you found out your female date had a dick and killed her, in the states, you can claim that you had trans panic, and they'll basically say "well, alright, it's fine that you MURDERED her, because it's not your fault".

That's... more than a little unnerving that it's pretty much legal to kill someone based on the status of their genitals.

The concept that it's actually alright to murder someone simply for being born a certain way, but that it's illegal to defend yourself from a physical attack with disproportionate force of that level is just flat out fucked up.


Anyway, nice link! The glossary's pretty useful to have for people new to the idea ^.^

I haven't checked all of it, but over the things I glanced through, they seemed pretty accurate =3

Oh, there's one random quirk I should cover about the glossary though, because it's pissed me off for awhile now...

Transgendered and Transsexual mean... the same thing. Both are right, and both are wrong. It gets really messed up too.

In some countries, Transgendered is the correct medical term. In others countries, it's Transsexual. Completely arbitrarily assigned and random, with no rhyme nor reason.

To make things better, even individual trans people can't agree on one or the other. Some claim to be transgendered since they're changing their designated gender, and it's not sexual in nature. Others state they're transsexual, as their gender has always been the same and they're only changing their sexual characteristics.

Both sides of the issue have valid points which make logical sense, but... yeah. It's like literally 50/50 which any person identifies as, and it's blind luck. Unfortunately, some of them get really pissy if you guess wrong, and then get pissy if you ask in the first place.

So yeah, there's no single "correct" universal term. You're pretty much grasping at straws. I'm not even going to try to defend that rationale, as I'm not sure there is one.

It'd be nice if we could just agree on something as simple as a scientifically agreed upon term =P
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
And I have received a great link from a friend of mine: http://queerinkblots.blogspot.hu/2012/09/a-glossary-comments-welcome-as-always.html

I agree with all your points, they are reasonable.

However, I have learned a bit more about this subject, and I think I can tell where transphobia comes in. If you meet someone, who is presumably female, you start dating for example, and like her a lot... And physically, she looks female. Based on her actions, she seems female. However, if after any sort of emotional involvement, I find out that she is actually biological-sexwise male, then there's nothing I can do about that. That's something I wouldn't accept in a relationship - it pretty much discloses sexual compatibility.
And with that in mind, I'm not surprised that people are afraid to encounter such a phenomenon.


Careful with this. There is a notion that trans people are deceptive and therefore deserve to be murdered that stems from this line of thinking. Everyone should be treated with respect regarding their sexual orientation, but remember it's you not them in that case.
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Zhuinden



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Zhuinden wrote:
And I have received a great link from a friend of mine: http://queerinkblots.blogspot.hu/2012/09/a-glossary-comments-welcome-as-always.html

I agree with all your points, they are reasonable.

However, I have learned a bit more about this subject, and I think I can tell where transphobia comes in. If you meet someone, who is presumably female, you start dating for example, and like her a lot... And physically, she looks female. Based on her actions, she seems female. However, if after any sort of emotional involvement, I find out that she is actually biological-sexwise male, then there's nothing I can do about that. That's something I wouldn't accept in a relationship - it pretty much discloses sexual compatibility.
And with that in mind, I'm not surprised that people are afraid to encounter such a phenomenon.


Careful with this. There is a notion that trans people are deceptive and therefore deserve to be murdered that stems from this line of thinking. Everyone should be treated with respect regarding their sexual orientation, but remember it's you not them in that case.


I only meant it's reasonable to be surprised, and reject them on this notion. I never said it's a legitimate reason to MURDER someone. That's like saying it's perfectly reasonable to murder someone if they break up with you unexpectedly, or cheat on you, etc etc.

Although yes, you are right. This really is a bad pathway. And honestly, blaming it on "panic" somewhat proves that the person at hand is an uncontrolled violent beast who is a complete viability for all people around them. You don't just "murder" someone out of "panic", it takes way longer for a human to die than that, unless you carry a firearm or any other kind of weapon. But this should not count as self-defense, that person did no physical threat of any sort, and especially not harm....
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3318
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Zhuinden wrote:
And I have received a great link from a friend of mine: http://queerinkblots.blogspot.hu/2012/09/a-glossary-comments-welcome-as-always.html

I agree with all your points, they are reasonable.

However, I have learned a bit more about this subject, and I think I can tell where transphobia comes in. If you meet someone, who is presumably female, you start dating for example, and like her a lot... And physically, she looks female. Based on her actions, she seems female. However, if after any sort of emotional involvement, I find out that she is actually biological-sexwise male, then there's nothing I can do about that. That's something I wouldn't accept in a relationship - it pretty much discloses sexual compatibility.
And with that in mind, I'm not surprised that people are afraid to encounter such a phenomenon.


Careful with this. There is a notion that trans people are deceptive and therefore deserve to be murdered that stems from this line of thinking. Everyone should be treated with respect regarding their sexual orientation, but remember it's you not them in that case.


I only meant it's reasonable to be surprised. I never said it's a legitimate reason to MURDER someone. That's like saying it's perfectly reasonable to murder someone if they break up with you unexpectedly, or cheat on you, etc etc.

Although yes, you are right. This really is a bad pathway. And honestly, blaming it on "panic" somewhat proves that the person at hand is an uncontrolled violent beast who is a complete viability for all people around them. You don't just "murder" someone out of "panic", it takes way longer for a human to die than that, unless you carry a firearm or any other kind of weapon. But this should not count as self-defense, that person did no physical threat of any sort, and especially not harm....


No, I get you weren't saying people should be murdered. I thought it should be brought up because what you were saying is very close or identical to the justification people give for killing trans folk (mainly trans women of color).

There is also a big kerfuffle about disclosure. Many people subscribe to the idea that trans people have to disclose, which puts the onus on them - leading to the idea that a trans person who didn't disclose and was killed or beaten deserved it for not disclosing that they were trans.

I think a healthy relationship (even a one night stand) should start with honesty, but that isn't always safe for trans people either.
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
Posts: 729
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/transcripts/trans-disclosure-we-can-get-into-that/
Oh look that whole thing has already sort of been addressed (and in many other places other than that link too)

If someone wants to ask me questions about being non-binary, feel free. I feel like there are already a lot of misconceptions floating around and I'd prefer to address them sooner rather than later.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, I've just figured out that the character of Rukako in Steins;Gate involves a AMAB transgender person's transition MtF.

The more you know! Cool
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5344
Location: No.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a fan of Steins;Gate, but I don't think they handled that very well. It was mostly played for gags, if I recall.
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