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What is transgender?
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I understand correctly, Ana is not trans*

AMAB and male-identified
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Ennis



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
Finnegan wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out how to apply these "labels" to me own sexuality. I know I'm a man and I was born a man, but I don't feel like I have much of what would be considered "maleness". I don't feel that I'm actually a woman though, so I go with genderqueer to express (to myself, my labels are only really for me to give me a sense of identity) that I associate with both and neither gender in way


In my case, my 'gender identity' is male, because I was born male, and I wouldn't want to change that - I'm okay with my body and how it is. As for being masculine, hahahah HAHAHAHAHAAHHA no. Stereotypes are unable to define me as a person, thus I'll just go with "I am who I am". I don't really need labels, people will get to know me anyways if they want to.


I noticed this before and nobody else seems to have noticed, but you can be trans* and also not want to change your body. If you feel like what makes you a man is the fact that you were assigned male at birth then fine, cool, but please don't think that all AMAB people who aren't trans women but are trans* are under some kind of delusion about stereotypes. That's not how it works. Saying that you "don't really need labels" is often a privilege because you happen to be the default, and don't need to elaborate to counteract people's wrongful assumptions. A straight woman won't think twice (except in regards to feminism) if someone asks if she has a boyfriend, whereas a lesbian will be aware of the heteronormativity of assuming everyone is straight until they tell you otherwise. People argue "but majorities!" but no, being a majority is no excuse. You end up othering LGB people, like their sexuality is different and abnormal rather than just part of the human experience that anyone could have. You hear about people talking about what men want ("boobs! hourglass shape!") and realise that when they actually mean "straight men". (Not going in attraction politics.) Straight men don't feel like they need a label because they're assumed the default in so many ways.

I need labels because I'm not the default and I need to communicate who I actually am so people don't wrongfully categorise me. I need "asexual" because that pretty much communicates that I am not interested in a relationship with sex, when relationships with sex are considered the default. I need "trans*" because I do not feel at all like my assigned gender and I need "non-binary" because I don't feel like a man or woman. Which no, is not because of stereotypes of what men and women are or gender roles, though I will admit that I fit neither role.

Believe me, I spent enough time being furious at non-binaries for "giving up" since I believed if you weren't "the full transsexual" you just had to accept whatever gender you were assigned and to do otherwise was somehow unacceptable. Basically "If I have to be miserable as a <assigned>, then so do all of you!". I was constantly struggling with how much I hated having to be my assigned gender, but I figured I just had to deal with it and that was a part of life. Hating being seen that way, wanting to be seen another way, surely everyone felt like that. Surely everyone secretly wanted to be seen as neither a man or woman but current society wouldn't allow for it so they stuck with their assigned gender because that was the only choice.

In year 10 I came up with an idea for a story about a society in the future where there was a third gender. At a certain age people could get surgery (at this point I thought that bodies = gender but in my defense, it was somewhat based on my own longings for androgyny) to make them androgynous and there was also a certain "code" of clothes so that people could read them as such. They were also all asexual (once again blatant projection before I'd properly acknowledged these things). In my made-up world they were renowned for being good employees because they weren't distracted by sex (guess I just wanted a job >_>). I was thinking about the plot, and wondered what it would be like if instead of being created by surgery, what if one day someone was born androgynous? Without meaning to I'd introduced an intersex person, before I even knew they existed.

I looked at my story plan, and went "geez, I would be one of these androgynous people in a heartbeat". Then I forgot about it, because surely it wasn't possible, I barely even knew about binary transsexual people at that point.

It isn't about stereotypes. Don't argue that in some hypothetical future gender won't matter and therefore non-binaries just need to stick with their assigned gender and be atypical men/women because right now gender does matter, and non-binaries have invented genders that actually work for them rather than the two invented binary genders that don't.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the way Zhuinden phrased things around that and the misconceptions it revealed bothered me too
thanks for actually bothering to clear that up
I was too lazy


also androgyny is ftw
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
also androgyny is ftw


it bears repeating
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was once working on a story called War of the Sexes and it had all the problems, including straw fminits, militant lesbians, asexuals as peaceful and lifeless, sexual slavery, etc. I didn't think it was bad at the time and my intentions were good.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
Finnegan wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out how to apply these "labels" to me own sexuality. I know I'm a man and I was born a man, but I don't feel like I have much of what would be considered "maleness". I don't feel that I'm actually a woman though, so I go with genderqueer to express (to myself, my labels are only really for me to give me a sense of identity) that I associate with both and neither gender in way


In my case, my 'gender identity' is male, because I was born male, and I wouldn't want to change that - I'm okay with my body and how it is. As for being masculine, hahahah HAHAHAHAHAAHHA no. Stereotypes are unable to define me as a person, thus I'll just go with "I am who I am". I don't really need labels, people will get to know me anyways if they want to.


I don't mean not fitting in with "macho male stereotypes" I mean things like wearing skirts in the summer because I find it more comfortable and cooler/refreshing. note this is different from cross-dressing, this is me doing what is comfortable for me being myself- gender roles be damned.
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Ennis



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
I was once working on a story called War of the Sexes and it had all the problems, including straw fminits, militant lesbians, asexuals as peaceful and lifeless, sexual slavery, etc. I didn't think it was bad at the time and my intentions were good.


lolwhat? Tell me more about this. Also how did they fit in with sexual slavery?
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
I was once working on a story called War of the Sexes and it had all the problems, including straw fminits, militant lesbians, asexuals as peaceful and lifeless, sexual slavery, etc. I didn't think it was bad at the time and my intentions were good.


lolwhat? Tell me more about this. Also how did they fit in with sexual slavery?


Ooooh, I get to share an embarassing problematic old story. I havn't thought about it in years, so lets see...

Basically there were four countries with four cultures based on gender and sexuality. So there were isgnder women, cisgender men. agender/asexual people, and one other group I don't remember much about. They were supposed to be the opposite of the agender people.

Everyone but the agender peope were fighting, and the cisgendered women were winning because thy figured out how to make themselves gay. I'm pretty sure my reasoning had to do with repression or something. Wasnot well thought out.

The agender people were magical wizard types. I think it was supposed to be that because they weren't fighting, they had time on their hand and used that to do awesome stuff. I think they were supposed to end the fight.

The slavery thing came in when the different countries dealt with gender. Men in the cis women and women in the cis men countries were all organized into really strict roles and had no freedom. Soe would be given sex reassignment, and they had the crappiest of crappy lots.

I don't knw how much about queer or feminist movement history I knew at the time, but I can see where some of it might have come from. I'm very glad Ididn't do much more than world building with it.
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Ennis



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:

Everyone but the agender peope were fighting, and the cisgendered women were winning because thy figured out how to make themselves gay. I'm pretty sure my reasoning had to do with repression or something. Wasnot well thought out.

The agender people were magical wizard types. I think it was supposed to be that because they weren't fighting, they had time on their hand and used that to do awesome stuff. I think they were supposed to end the fight.

That is seriously the most flattering portrayal. I've always wanted to be a wizard. When do I start getting powers because I'm not fighting or having sex.

Oh my god I actually made an asexual character that plays at being a wizard in virtual reality too. This is hilarious.

How were the cis women winning by being gay?

stripeypants wrote:

The slavery thing came in when the different countries dealt with gender. Men in the cis women and women in the cis men countries were all organized into really strict roles and had no freedom. Soe would be given sex reassignment, and they had the crappiest of crappy lots.


Wait, so there were cis men in the cis women country? How?
I'm surprised that you made the SRS a crappy thing. I mean I can see how it would be for cis people, but wouldn't you be approaching it differently?
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Zhuinden



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
the way Zhuinden phrased things around that and the misconceptions it revealed bothered me too
thanks for actually bothering to clear that up
I was too lazy

also androgyny is ftw


You guys totally need a genderless pronoun. My language doesn't even have gendered ones.
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Ennis



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
Heretical Rants wrote:
the way Zhuinden phrased things around that and the misconceptions it revealed bothered me too
thanks for actually bothering to clear that up
I was too lazy

also androgyny is ftw


You guys totally need a genderless pronoun. My language doesn't even have gendered ones.


Oh, we have them. We have many. But no one uses them.

http://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com/

Personally I prefer singular "they" just because it's the easiest to actually use. People actually use it all the time without realising anyway. http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Pronouns

But yeah basically english sucks for having gendered pronouns in the first place. At least it's not spanish though, where I think every single word or sentence is gendered.

What's your language?
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Zhuinden



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:

Oh, we have them. We have many. But no one uses them.

http://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com/

Personally I prefer singular "they" just because it's the easiest to actually use. People actually use it all the time without realising anyway. http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Pronouns

But yeah basically english sucks for having gendered pronouns in the first place. At least it's not spanish though, where I think every single word or sentence is gendered.

What's your language?


Hungarian. We don't have any gendered pronouns... although that doesn't mean there's no sexism around here. Crying or Very sad
English would be painful to learn if it was like German - with every single word having a gender.

The problem with these pronouns is that none of them seem to get a 5/5 score. Also, people would have to start actually using it, and I guess most people are okay with the way it is now. It sucks.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
If I understand correctly, Ana is not trans*

AMAB and male-identified

I don' think Ana really is though, at least as portrayed in the show. Ana only identifies as male for the lul's ("What do you mean 'why am I in this bathroom, isn't this the one all the boys use?"). Ana's actions and behaviors are definitely more along the lines of gender neutrality, which was what I was bringing up. As I see it, anyone identifying as something they weren't born as falls under the umbrella of "trans". As I see it, unless you were born being neuter (i.e. possessing no genitals or sexual organs), being a gray ace effectively makes you trans.

Also the main characters are supposed to be (roughly) reincarnations of geniuses of the past.

Ana is DaVinci. I don't think that's mere coincidence. Also, isn't it extremely tricky and difficult to portray a gender neutral dialogue in Japanese? I mean, isn't it nearly impossible for a speaker to not have to identify in some manner because of how the language works?
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Katsuni



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
Katsuni wrote:
even gays make up about 1 in 15 people, which is a ton in comparison


I'm interested as to where you got that statistic from, because a 1988 study in Canada showed around 1% of the population was homosexual (and a further 1% was bi). A less scientific Gallup Poll in 2012 found that 3.4% of adults in the US identify as LGBT (combined). By that statistic, only about 1 in 30 people would be Homosexual, Bisexual, or Transsexual.

It was a study I was reading awhile ago about gay/lesbian elderly people being harassed or refused rights in retirement homes and such due to being such.

It had cited, at the time, that nearly 7%, or 1 in 15, people were either homosexual or bisexual, and it was a massive disservice to them.

I don't recall the title of the study/article off the top of my head, but it's likely inaccurate compared to studies specifically focusing upon how many there really are.

Regardless, the only study trans people have to fall back on for numbers is wildly inaccurate, and cites supposedly about a 1 in 30,000 frequency (which I can't honestly believe myself) rate of trans people. That particular study was absolute crap though, which essentially only counted people who underwent SRS (Sexual Reassignment Surgery) at a single hospital in a single city, then compared that against the total population of the country >.> (Because, yeah, that doesn't just ignore anyone who can't afford SRS, or doesn't want to due to a wide variety of reasons, or gets SRS done elsewhere).

Recently, it's been suggested that this number is absurd (if only 1 in 30,000 are trans, then why is SRS given to about 1 in 2,500? =P ), and that the numbers may be closer to 1 in 500.

Regardless, we have sketchy numbers on both trans and gay people (though likely vastly more inaccurate numbers for the trans side of things), but even with more accurate rough estimates, 1 in 30 vs 1 in 500 is still over a full order of magnitude in difference.

As such, don't take my presented numbers too seriously, as they could be wildly skewed due to lack of proper research on such, yet trans numbers are still likely under 1/10th of the rate of homo/bisexual individuals (though how this accounts for homo/bisexual trans people I have no idea how those statistics would even interact =P ).
Ennis wrote:
I noticed this before and nobody else seems to have noticed, but you can be trans* and also not want to change your body.

Totally true! Wanting to change your body is more about body dysphoria than it is about being trans, honestly. The two just happen to often go hand in hand is all.

Dysphoria's basically when you disassociate yourself from your body in some way, shape or form. For trans people, the brain tells them that their body should be one way, and the mirror says quite another. It's mildly disorienting at best.

Now, for some people, it's a mild annoyance. For example, I go to the washroom, glance in the mirror, and for about half a second, I don't recognize myself. It takes that brief moment to suddenly clue in that "Oh yeah... that's me. I forgot.".

In my case, I could probably get away without bothering to transition with hormones or SRS, if I could just be accepted as myself without question. If I were simply treated as female by friends/family with no further issues related to such, I could probably tolerate the annoyance I feel at my body not quite looking right.

Unfortunately, that's not how the world works, and being perpetually reminded of "the ideal female appearance" in every media available, being actively harassed by family, and endless amounts of complex interactions with everyone else where gender ends up being the centerpiece of confusion, is just too much for me to put up with.

I may or may not bother with SRS (sometimes just called "bottom surgery"), since it'd make me more comfortable with myself, yes, but there are some really massive drawbacks to such, most of them medical in nature. It's very high risk, and would involve being on medication for the rest of my life kinda thing. How much is one's comfort worth? How much comfort is one willing to sacrifice in order to gain comfort in another area?

It's not a simple question =P

For other people... some are so at extensive odds with their body that their brain's pretty much flat out rejecting their body entirely, to the point that they would kill themselves, or become so disassociated with it that they would go through no effort to protect their body as they don't feel it's "theirs".

Others can just shrug and ignore it; it bothers them a little, but no big deal.

It all depends on the individual, their comfort level, and things like how much they're willing to sacrifice for a little ease of mind.

For some people, transitioning can lead to losing friends, family, loved ones, jobs, etc. Some aren't willing to take those risks, or lose those things. Some can't justify blowing tens of thousands of dollars on such. Some just really don't find it a large enough of a nuisance to really care that much about it =P
Quote:
Saying that you "don't really need labels" is often a privilege because you happen to be the default, and don't need to elaborate to counteract people's wrongful assumptions.

If you're genderqueer, then yay =P

If you're just cisgendered, it's essentially reinforcing your gender binary normative. Saying "I don't need to state that I'm female, it should be obvious" just kind of assumes that "looking stereotypically female is normal, and everyone else must conform to your default position".

Also, a minor tweak here to your quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Straight men don't feel like they need a label because they're assumed the default in so many ways.
Straight people don't feel like they need a label because they're assumed the default in so many ways.

It works regardless of male or female (as you were saying anyway; I just kinda hijacked your quote since it fit well with such a tiny tweak, sorry =P ).

Quote:
Believe me, I spent enough time being furious at non-binaries for "giving up" since I believed if you weren't "the full transsexual" you just had to accept whatever gender you were assigned and to do otherwise was somehow unacceptable.

Sadly, a lot of trans people feel very similar... "trannier than thou" is a term used far too often because of necessity to identify those who seem to have it in their heads that only they are the "twue twans".

Unfortunately, many people need to justify their existence, to somehow feel better about themselves. If everyone seems to hate you, then to remain sane you need to find some way to explain it all away. Many have come to the conclusion that the best way is to dehumanize everyone else so that they can feel better about themselves in comparison.

There's probably a lot of other reasons as well, but we could be here forever talking about ways victims often become the aggressor themselves after they've been hurt, and I'd rather avoid getting into anything which can be misconstrued into victim blaming.

The point is simply that there are sadly a lot of trans people who enforce upon others that there's only "one true way to be trans", and it's kind of ridiculous reasoning.

Flat out; if your gender doesn't match your assigned sex, you're trans, regardless of what those two are, or if you do anything about it.

Anyway, this post is getting long again, so I'll cut it short here. There's lots more I'd like to reply to, but I'll try to save it for a later time =3
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
stripeypants wrote:

Everyone but the agender peope were fighting, and the cisgendered women were winning because thy figured out how to make themselves gay. I'm pretty sure my reasoning had to do with repression or something. Wasnot well thought out.

The agender people were magical wizard types. I think it was supposed to be that because they weren't fighting, they had time on their hand and used that to do awesome stuff. I think they were supposed to end the fight.


That is seriously the most flattering portrayal. I've always wanted to be a wizard. When do I start getting powers because I'm not fighting or having sex.

Oh my god I actually made an asexual character that plays at being a wizard in virtual reality too. This is hilarious.

How were the cis women winning by being gay?



Your powers will be in the mail next week.

I think I was inspired by the book 1984 at the time, where the government discouraged sex so no one would be. complacent and satisfied - that way, they'd be better at fighting. Except I went took that route with the emotional part of relationships rather than just sex -the cis women were not as irritated as the cis men, bevause they could all have girlfriends and stuff. They were also not worried about homophobia, which the is men were.

Ennis wrote:

stripeypants wrote:

The slavery thing came in when the different countries dealt with gender. Men in the cis women and women in the cis men countries were all organized into really strict roles and had no freedom. Soe would be given sex reassignment, and they had the crappiest of crappy lots.


Wait, so there were cis men in the cis women country? How?
I'm surprised that you made the SRS a crappy thing. I mean I can see how it would be for cis people, but wouldn't you be approaching it differently?


You'd think I would, right? I didn't know what I was doing back then. I also had a lot towork out, because while I wasn't ashamed of being trans, I recognized a lot of people hated trans folk - so in screwed up societies where gender is codified to the extreme, prejudices I knew of could be played to the utmost.
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