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The Wii U Death Vigil (again)
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 707

PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
Huh. I hadn't thought about it like that. "It cannot be turned off and monitors your heartbeat" is still pretty creepy, but still, good point.


The hearbeat-monitoring ability could be put to such evil fucking uses in a horror-style game.

"Your heart rate is elevated? TIME TO THROW JUMP SCARES AT YOU."

I mean, imagine the ways Eternal Darkness could have fucked with you if it had known/been able to 'tell' when you were most agitated.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
CTrees wrote:
Okay Sam, why are you for mandatory kinect?


it makes it so that game studios making xbox games can actually make their games make use of kinect features fully.

if kinect is non-mandatory, they can't incorporate kinect beyond really simple elements that are completely optional and can be swapped out for controller functionality. if kinect is mandatory (not just bundled, mind you, but integrated straight into the system itself) then they can make games which are designed around the incorporation of sound/motion control from the ground up.

so basically, non-integral kinect would result in nothing new, just a niche market of fractional budget games that are entirely kinect novelty, but integral kinect means that games will be made for the xbox that seriously innovate how you can use kinect alongside controllers.

and it is literally to me the only interesting potential i see out of consoles this go around.

I'll say this, The Wii U is really a win if you've invested in Wii peripherals such as controllers, balance boards, instruments, and what not since they're all compatible. I'd say it's silly for any Wii owner not to upgrade to a Wii U.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
CTrees wrote:
Okay Sam, why are you for mandatory kinect?


it makes it so that game studios making xbox games can actually make their games make use of kinect features fully.

if kinect is non-mandatory, they can't incorporate kinect beyond really simple elements that are completely optional and can be swapped out for controller functionality.

Unless the title is exclusive to the Xbone, this will not be the case. They'll develop the game for everything else and then tack on Kinect features if they feel like it. Just like what happened with games that were available on other systems as well as the Wii with its motion controller.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9458

PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
I thought they made games that required the Kinect already. As in, you can't play this game without a Kinect.


yeah but they were like all niche-budget specifically-for-kinect games. Kinect as it is is a fraction of total xbox games. I don't really care about those, I don't care about all those damn dancing jumping games. I want big budget mainstream games to incorporate some level of kinect functionality into them, but still be mostly controller.

Even given the extremely piecemeal level of 'optional kinect' functionality you could put into games with 360's limited market kinect, some studios really pulled some gems out. Yelling shouts for Skyrim was fucking awesome and infinitely preferable to menu swapping. Using kinect for powers in ME3 was also awesome.
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
fritterdonut wrote:
I thought they made games that required the Kinect already. As in, you can't play this game without a Kinect.


yeah but they were like all niche-budget specifically-for-kinect games. Kinect as it is is a fraction of total xbox games. I don't really care about those, I don't care about all those damn dancing jumping games.


But... but... how can you say you don't care about them? How else would we have this masterpiece:


I heard that George Lucas called it, "the way he always envisioned Han Solo."
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Sam



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Sam wrote:
CTrees wrote:
Okay Sam, why are you for mandatory kinect?


it makes it so that game studios making xbox games can actually make their games make use of kinect features fully.

if kinect is non-mandatory, they can't incorporate kinect beyond really simple elements that are completely optional and can be swapped out for controller functionality.

Unless the title is exclusive to the Xbone, this will not be the case. They'll develop the game for everything else and then tack on Kinect features if they feel like it. Just like what happened with games that were available on other systems as well as the Wii with its motion controller.




Two things about that: first is that game studios WILL adapt cross-platform games to Kinect if Kinect is universal for Xbox One, as development for a console is already a resource intensive process that they already commit to. You can easily justify kinect integration as part of the already large code engineering, controller and UI adaption, and QA investment that is represented as a universal cost of cross-console development or porting.

Secondly, the circumstances involved don't make the wii comparison too perfect. The Wii's motion controllers were hard to make work as a standard controller and a motion-based controller at the same time, and in general it just made more sense to ignore. Even wii-only titles often needed a hell of a lot of incentive to be convinced to integrate motion sensor functionality in exclusive platform games.

Whereas with the Kinect, it is a discrete control functionality unit that is separate from and doesn't interfere with the controller. The two will play well with each other. What you are most likely to see is games that are primarily controller based but have a whole host of kinect inputs available to the player.

Imagine, essentially, CoD or a CoD clone where the game recognizes voice commands or hand motions to give commands to your squad, or any of a host of games where you can interface with your game's HUD in a sort of a pseudo-haptic way (e.g., you're in the game, and the game has a radar/minimap in the upper right hand corner. you reach your hand up to the upper right hand corner which causes the game to expand the radar to fullscreen and be operable with your hand until you put your hand back down, which minimizes it back to the corner).
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Sam



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:

I'll say this, The Wii U is really a win if you've invested in Wii peripherals such as controllers, balance boards, instruments, and what not since they're all compatible. I'd say it's silly for any Wii owner not to upgrade to a Wii U.


Couldn't disagree harder, and would convince people to completely ignore the Wii U right now, unless they want to be in the habit of owning consoles for their dust-collecting functionality. I mean I don't know. Your house might have a dust problem and need for you to spend $300 on a barren console.

The publisher situation for Wii U is absolutely dismal. It isn't even worth going into the details about it. It is not inconceivable that Nintendo will pull off some of their inexplicable magic and keep the console from being a flat fucking worse failure than Dreamcast, but this is not a solid inspiration for buying a console.

Ctrees wrote:
But... but... how can you say you don't care about them? How else would we have this masterpiece


alas, poor lucasarts. no more abject a swan song could you have had
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of the Dreamcast, Cave Story has been ported to it. Because.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Sam wrote:
CTrees wrote:
Okay Sam, why are you for mandatory kinect?

it makes it so that game studios making xbox games can actually make their games make use of kinect features fully.
if kinect is non-mandatory, they can't incorporate kinect beyond really simple elements that are completely optional and can be swapped out for controller functionality.

Unless the title is exclusive to the Xbone, this will not be the case. They'll develop the game for everything else and then tack on Kinect features if they feel like it. Just like what happened with games that were available on other systems as well as the Wii with its motion controller.

Two things about that: first is that game studios WILL adapt cross-platform games to Kinect if Kinect is universal for Xbox One, as development for a console is already a resource intensive process that they already commit to. You can easily justify kinect integration as part of the already large code engineering, controller and UI adaption, and QA investment that is represented as a universal cost of cross-console development or porting.

I don't doubt that they will keep it in mind for porting, but I do doubt that it will have the kind of renewed focus and dedication from development that you're talking about. It's early days yet, and there are some ideas floating around that might not shake out as the business of selling games goes forward.

Quote:
Secondly, the circumstances involved don't make the wii comparison too perfect. The Wii's motion controllers were hard to make work as a standard controller and a motion-based controller at the same time...

I don't think that's the case. I don't even understand how that could be the case. What was so difficult about ignoring the accelerometer/camera data and focusing only on button input?

Quote:
...and in general it just made more sense to ignore.

Except that the motion controls were not ignored, unless the whole Wii platform was and you're talking about games that weren't ported to it. They were integrated, but often in an after-thought kind of way or a half-baked gimmick. Very few games didn't implement some kind of Wiimote motion control functionality.
This is especially true given that there really was no standard gamepad-type controller. You could use a Gamecube controller, you could use the two different but equally cumbersome "Classic" controller attachment for the Wiimote, or you could just use the nunchuck which added a thumbstick and two trigger buttons and turn the Wiimote itself into essentially a standard controller with different ergonomics. Ninendo made sure that all the Wiimote-based options worked the same regardless of configuration. I'm not sure if that was also true for the GC controller, but there was nothing stopping a developer from utilizing that too unless there was extra effort involved in supporting the signals.
There were a lot of options, but it boils down to this: the lowest common denominator was a lone Wiimote using buttons and motion controls or Wiimote without motion controls. People expected motion controls from everything that hit the console, so those were the default for almost all games. Far from being ignored, it was the most utilized method. The biggest problem was that developers didn't really know what to do with motion controls outside of shovelware games at first, so the motion aspect was relegated to a few gimmicks when integrated into other games.

Quote:
Even wii-only titles often needed a hell of a lot of incentive to be convinced to integrate motion sensor functionality in exclusive platform games.

Examples? The only first-party title I can think of that uses practically zero motion stuff is Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and that's mostly because gestures just don't work for 2D fighting games.

Quote:
Whereas with the Kinect, it is a discrete control functionality unit that is separate from and doesn't interfere with the controller. The two will play well with each other. What you are most likely to see is games that are primarily controller based but have a whole host of kinect inputs available to the player.

Imagine, essentially, CoD or a CoD clone where the game recognizes voice commands or hand motions to give commands to your squad, or any of a host of games where you can interface with your game's HUD in a sort of a pseudo-haptic way (e.g., you're in the game, and the game has a radar/minimap in the upper right hand corner. you reach your hand up to the upper right hand corner which causes the game to expand the radar to fullscreen and be operable with your hand until you put your hand back down, which minimizes it back to the corner).

Voice commands sounds like a good idea, though the DS did it first and it hasn't really been widely adopted. Taking your hand off the controller in a FPS sounds terrible.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6320

PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
CTrees wrote:
Huh. I hadn't thought about it like that. "It cannot be turned off and monitors your heartbeat" is still pretty creepy, but still, good point.


The hearbeat-monitoring ability could be put to such evil fucking uses in a horror-style game.

"Your heart rate is elevated? TIME TO THROW JUMP SCARES AT YOU."

I mean, imagine the ways Eternal Darkness could have fucked with you if it had known/been able to 'tell' when you were most agitated.


I feel like it could be even more evil and throw stuff at you as soon as your heartbeat starts to slow a little, instead. Like, lull you into a false sense of security, scare the shit out of you, then lather, rinse, repeat. People might be more likely to come back for more, and someone like me (who gets SUPER FREAKED OUT BY THAT SHIT) would be less likely to get mobbed and die as soon as the game loads every freaking time.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Examples? The only first-party title I can think of that uses practically zero motion stuff is Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and that's mostly because gestures just don't work for 2D fighting games.


yeah and they had to really seriously beg and pull all kinds of pleading to forego any sort of motion control in ssbb — the standard decree was to have to use motion stuff

Quote:
I don't think that's the case. I don't even understand how that could be the case. What was so difficult about ignoring the accelerometer/camera data and focusing only on button input?


that's not what's difficult, what's difficult is when you do the whole 'eh let's just have this be a standard controller' thing like holding it sideways, then also having a whole lot of motion control stuff incorporated
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those things you just said don't really seem to support the things you were saying.
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DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atrophy Annie wrote:
Rep doesn't factor into the guild bonuses. Or rather, it doesn't matter what your rep is, you'll get the benefits. You don't even need to quest in Pandaria to get gear; there are vendors that sell gear that's an upgrade to any Cata blues/greens you're wearing (or not, as the case may be Wink ). And DeD, I would be more than happy to return to you the money you sent me, if you'd like.


Arc hooked me up with some gold. But thanks though. I'll look into the vendor gear when I hit 85.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm confused, let me reread what i wrote and see what's up
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just don't really see motion controllers going anywhere soon. So much of the market is invested in fast-paced FPS games and motion control in it's current state doesn't have the required reaction time or accuracy to really used without adding some serious player handicaps. As it was previously mentioned, taking your hands off the controller during said games is generally a bad idea; so that kind of precludes any mixing of a physical controller and motion controls.

I think the age of the analog stick is not yet over.
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