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2013-06-20 WHY CAN'T I HOLD ALL THESE...
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3333

PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Also women are not bees. The collective hive mind did not birth Twilight to provide nutrients for the nest. An individual woman wrote it, other individual women read it, other individual women do not read it.


One generalized thing about women though...they may not be bees, but covered in bees?

Can't keep willem off em.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Yeup. Gettin' pretty sick of this idea that women are some sort of weird "other" that need to be studied and dissected.

(Comic by Jhonen Vasquez. Go buy his shit, even though he's sounds like kind of a dick.)
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Samsally the GrayAce
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The answer is not that women are bees, but that women are mormon bees.

All women.

All of them.

For serious.

MONOLITHIC MORMON BEES.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:

Yeup. Gettin' pretty sick of this idea that women are some sort of weird "other" that need to be studied and dissected.


It all stems from the idea that "men and women are biologically different, men are rational while women are emotional, men are from Mars while women are from Jupiter and thus we have absolutely no means of EVER even DREAMING of being capable of understanding the other gender".

Please don't ask me why I know this concept, I don't remember, I don't know, and I wish I didn't know it. But it does exist, and it enables all the stupid shit that a bunch of sexist bastards do, from 'nice guys' through domestic violence to rape. All of it.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*snort* You know the concept because it is deeply engrained in our culture. Even if you didn't have words for it, it'd taint your world view like it does everyone else's. You DO have words for it because somebody somewhere thought they were clever and made a terrible analogy that stuck.

But yeah, I totally agree. It's a horrible way to simplify people, and in simplifying them we unconsciously rob them of their humanity. We do it all the time and in a million different ways, but that doesn't make it less terrible.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1055

PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
The answer is not that women are bees, but that women are mormon bees.

All women.

All of them.

For serious.

MONOLITHIC MORMON BEES.


I'm Mormon. (Sort of.)

My name means "bee."

I still think Twilight sucks.

But it seems like Stephanie Meyer, through the process of writing and being successful, may have started her own actual feminist awakening. And MoFems (yeah, yeah, I know, but it's a thing,) would be kinda crazy not to accept her into the ranks considering she is a successful and independent Mormon woman. So there's that.

I still think Twilight sucks.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first read Twilight feminism was like... That thing I took a college course on once and then kind of forgot about. I didn't like it then and it wasn't because Edward creeped me the fuck out (though he SHOULD have)... it was just because I didn't understand the appeal of him. I repeatedly thought he was being a jerk and I wished Bella would just step the fuck up and confront him on it.

And like, okay, Jacob seemed okay at first! But I kept reading and Bella kept treating him like utter shit and then he started being kind of a douchebag on top of that and I stopped seeing the attraction in HIM...

Then the fourth book happened and I was like "WHEN DID THIS BECOME HORROR/SCIFI" and then the whole "i bonded with your baby and it broke that awkward love triangle" thing happened and really at the end I just felt super confused. I honestly remember thinking "Wow that's a whole new level of pedophilia I could have lived my entire life happily never thinking about EVER."

And then the series went from being "that thing a coworker recommended and I read for lack of anything better to do" to "holy shit this is EVERYWHERE WHAT"

Then I started reading OTHER people's reviews and I was a little floored by just how much creepiness I did not notice the first go-around.

~the moral of this story is that I'm bored tonight and felt like talking. Also, my experiences and opinions are vastly different than other women's experiences and opinions. AND THAT'S OKAY
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And all men are Pastafarian Potatobugs!
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
The answer is not that women are bees, but that women are mormon bees.

All women.

All of them.

For serious.

MONOLITHIC MORMON BEES.


I'm Mormon. (Sort of.)

My name means "bee."

I still think Twilight sucks.

But it seems like Stephanie Meyer, through the process of writing and being successful, may have started her own actual feminist awakening. And MoFems (yeah, yeah, I know, but it's a thing,) would be kinda crazy not to accept her into the ranks considering she is a successful and independent Mormon woman. So there's that.

I still think Twilight sucks.


BEE!

I think part of it is also like how romance novels are (or at least were) empowering for some women. The book "Beyond Heaving Bosoms" had a lot to say about how books where the heroine was raped removed the social stigma against her willingly engaging in sex - so then the reader could explore sexuality without that shame. Which is just totally bizarre, but after reading that I can understand a lot more why romance novels are the way they are. They are still problematic, but I can see at least some people are getting some good out of them.

I feel the same about Twilight - except of course that other less problematic stuff is pushed aside in favor of publishing things like this.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diagram12345 wrote:
Dogen wrote:
Okay, but is there a good reason to romanticize abuse? Because "fictitious monsters act that way" seems like a flimsy reason, being that they're fictitious and will act however the author wants them to act.

I harp on Twilight because it's the one I know best (I don't read a lot of fiction anymore Sad ), but there are relationships in other works (Wheel of Time, for the love of naked Jesus) that are just as messed up.


It's not men and boys who are pushing Twilight on women -- if anything, men make fun of women for enjoying Twilight. Twilight is something made by a woman for women, and for whatever reason, women have chosen to embrace Twilight. Even though I have no interest in reading Twilight myself, I respect other women's decisions to enjoy and fantasize about the kind of relationships depicted in the books.

Why do you think women and girls love Twilight so much?

I'm not sure where I said it was anyone pushing Twilight on anyone? I just said how I feel about it. And I'm not sure what the ability to respect the fantasies of women has to do with the fundamentally unhealthy nature of the relationship between Bella and Edward.

Basically, who are you talking to? And why did you quote me and then talk about things unrelated to the things I was talking about?
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate Twilight. But what I hate more are people who can't see how society tells women how good it is to have men creepily obsess over you and then say that they're the ones bringing it upon them. Fuck you etc.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
I hate Twilight. But what I hate more are people who can't see how society tells women how good it is to have men creepily obsess over you and then say that they're the ones bringing it upon them. Fuck you etc.


There is so much more to criticize about Twilight, for example this video which unfortunately you guys won't understand due to the language. Sad

Overall, the main points were:
1.) the movies are 'technically' atrocious (animation, character play, etc.)
2.) the characters are completely illogical (the decisions characters make don't make any sense)
3.) this is in fact absurd implicit sexual material (porn)
quote, 'if we accept the hypothesis that romantic movies are basically porn for women, then I'd supplement this idea with that romantic comedies are the 'softcore', innocent category of this genre, and Twilight is the sickest hardcore junk that would give you 3 different audiovisual STDs just from watching it'.
4.) christian propaganda - aggressively forcing it on others without actually saying it ~ in this book, current and radical views, such as "homosexuality is choice", and "the greatest value of a girl is their virginity"
5.) this series targets the most influentable layer of society, and underneath its dumb and innocent shell, they've created something that broadcasts catastrophic emotional and social messages, and is in essence mormon porn for little girls

It's somewhat sad that you guys can't watch it and understand the speech, although in the worst case scenario I could attempt to translate this thing.
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cleocatra



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the person who hates twilight the most ended up being Robert Patterson and the second most hating of twilight is the rest of the cast.

http://stoney321.livejournal.com/317176.html I like this analysis. though there was a better one somewhere which I can't find now?
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cleocatra wrote:
I think the person who hates twilight the most ended up being Robert Patterson and the second most hating of twilight is the rest of the cast.


I guess you might be right.

As for analysis, isn't it the one that I linked above, "Mark reads Twilight"?
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading the things Robert Patterson says about Twilight makes me laugh nearly every time. I try to avoid blanket hating stuff but I sort of feel like he's earned it in this case. Same with the rest of the cast.
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