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2013-06-26 Women Only Space
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 2786
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:

stripeypants wrote:
And while I'd love for Tat to do something with transgender people


Well, Tat's personal life is none of our business.


True, true, though I could make a stunning case for why he should totes hang out with me.

Ronald wrote:

Stripeypants wrote:
I don't know if he even knows enough to do it properly.


Even aside from that, the strip IMHO has too many characters as it is.


Yeah, there's that problem too.
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cleocatra



Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 169
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Yinello wrote:
cleocatra wrote:
I kinda want to see if there's any trans* issues which will be shown here because of the whole some radfems don't accept trans women into women only spaces (because the radfems think anybody who has the possibility of a penis is automatically a rapist or something along those lines)

I believe women only spaces are for all women :V!


Imo if someone considers themselves to be a woman, they are a woman. So they can join my woman only space!

Unless they suffer from internal mysogynism.


Now, now, we can't discuss the actual issues that crop up alomgside women's only spaces. The cisgender, heterosexual men folks are expressing their rage about a conspiracy against their penii. (That's not hemi-penii, mind you - I don't want to be accused of accusing anyone of having two penii, r a double headed penis.)

More seriously, I don't expect Tat to do anything with trans issues ecause he seems unaware of trans people. Either that or he has too much on his plate already.


How do you make a men's only space?

Put a misogynist there.
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Theia



Joined: 31 May 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So men-only spaces are okay, too, right? Like, there's nothing inherently wrong with those either?

Uh, and it should be clear that I don't know much on this subject compared to you all, so if my question is one you'd roll your eyes at forgive me yaythanks
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My feelings towards gender clubs in general are pretty negative
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Theia



Joined: 31 May 2013
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Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh. I thought general opinion was clear-cut on the issue when stripeypants said "Now, now, we can't discuss the actual issues that crop up alomgside women's only spaces. The cisgender, heterosexual men folks are expressing their rage about a conspiracy against their penii." (I'm not saying this is your opinion. Stripeypants just made it sound like there was some obvious answer).
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Onimaru



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is why I wanted on the first page! Most people read it then skip to the end and then post.

Theia wrote:
So men-only spaces are okay, too, right? Like, there's nothing inherently wrong with those either?

Uh, and it should be clear that I don't know much on this subject compared to you all, so if my question is one you'd roll your eyes at forgive me yaythanks


Like I said back on the 2nd page, they have a LONG history of being simply places for men to be comfortable Abusing women without having to deal with women giving them the stink eye or worse.

Heretical Rants wrote:
My feelings towards gender clubs in general are pretty negative


But as said here, most exclusionist clubs male or female tend to be viewed negatively. Some groups found these clubs for good reasons but the majority are simply a place to bash the opposite sex with impunity.
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Theia



Joined: 31 May 2013
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Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Onimaru wrote:
This is why I wanted on the first page! Most people read it then skip to the end and then post.

Theia wrote:
So men-only spaces are okay, too, right? Like, there's nothing inherently wrong with those either?

Uh, and it should be clear that I don't know much on this subject compared to you all, so if my question is one you'd roll your eyes at forgive me yaythanks


Like I said back on the 2nd page, they have a LONG history of being simply places for men to be comfortable Abusing women without having to deal with women giving them the stink eye or worse.

Heretical Rants wrote:
My feelings towards gender clubs in general are pretty negative


But as said here, most exclusionist clubs male or female tend to be viewed negatively. Some groups found these clubs for good reasons but the majority are simply a place to bash the opposite sex with impunity.


I read your post on the second page as thoroughly as the post on the first page. And the pages after. That is, I skimmed it kind of and tried to get the general gist of it.

How do they abuse women without there being women around to abuse?
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not that they abuse women, it's that they can pat each other on the back and reaffirm their ideas on women. It's dangerous like how rape jokes make a rapist feel like what he does is normal.

Take theredpill on reddit for example. It's full of creepy ass dudes (and probably trolls) with creepy ideas on how to treat wimminz and they tell each other that yeah, that's the way to do it, don't let those feeemales get you down!

I'm all for an actual men space that harbors men who are being abused or who need help and that have professionals to help them out. Problem is with our society that it's perceived as 'weak' (womanly) and men proceed to say they don't need them.
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Onimaru



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theia wrote:


I read your post on the second page as thoroughly as the post on the first page. And the pages after. That is, I skimmed it kind of and tried to get the general gist of it.

How do they abuse women without there being women around to abuse?



My apologies for assuming you skipped my post, from your first post it seemed that you hadn't come across it. That being said Yinello probably explained it better than I could, they don't physically abuse, but they reinforce poor attitudes and behaviors, and let's not forget that 'Men Only', only means male only membership. Strippers and others are still commonplace in 'Gentlemen's Clubs' Sad
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Theia



Joined: 31 May 2013
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Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't female-only spaces run the same risk, though? Like, of their coming together just to bash on men or reinforce anti-male behaviors and attitudes?

I'm guessing the answer justifying female-only spaces over male-only spaces has something to do with social norms and the danger / risks that they pose.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1082
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
It's almost like I come in from a long day at work, and I see racist, sexist, homophobic pricks shitting up my unwind space every day and actually get angry about it.


Unwinding with the Comics Subforum seems like a recipe for a heart attack.

Re: The actual discussion, I don't really see a problem with gender clubs, male or female, as long as the participants willingly join, and as long as they don't reinforce negative behavior. If women want a space where they can openly talk about women's issues with other women, that's cool. If men the same thing, that's cool too. What's not cool though, is making a space where you can openly be an asshole and furthermore be reinforced by other people also being assholes (sexism, homophobia, racism, etc).

However I will admit from personal experience clubs in general have an unfortunate tendency to be less of an inclusive thing and more about excluding others to create some kind of twisted sense of superiority or 'exclusiveness'.
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LadySunami



Joined: 04 May 2009
Posts: 187
Location: Elsewhere

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arthain wrote:
Heretical Rants wrote:
There's nothing wrong with asking the random creep in a handpuppet to leave.

Arthain: your theology is bad and you should feel bad.


I'd hardly consider 'God' as a random creep. Razz

And ya, Theology isn't my strong suit that's for sure. I really couldn't care less about it. I'm 'supposed' to be catholic but, meh. I know that the biblical God is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent (all loving). Omnipresence is also part of Christianity but I don't believe it is for Catholicism, don't quote me on that though, not sure.

That's about all I really know on the subject. I just took that basic knowledge and extrapolated a conclusion from it. Is my conclusion wrong? Not until someone proves it wrong. If that happens I'll admit it but just saying my Theology is bad doesn't really cut it.

It sort of depends on what part of the Bible is followed. Genesis specifically talks about God walking in the garden and asking Adam and Eve where they were after the whole "eating the forbidden fruit" thing. I think it's safe to say he was neither omniscient not omnipresent in that particular chapter.

I'm sure he could leave them alone if he wanted to. He makes the rules after all, so why not change them?
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LadySunami



Joined: 04 May 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crayven wrote:
Going to a random place and planting a post ( which seems to be what all this group does, barge in uninvited and plant signs in people's face - someone has to wonder if the "patriarchy" is so powerful why aren't they arrested? ) and then declaring it "woman only" is pretty hilarious on borderline arrogant.
Who gives them the authority to do this? The fact that they have paranoid delusions that the imaginary devil is out to get them? The fact that they believe they are in the matrix of anti woman?
We lock those people up.

How do we know this property doesn't belong to one of the girls? I mean if they're sticking this sign in a public park, yeah that's a nasty thing to do, but if the sisterhood owns it, it's no big deal. It's like sticking a no hunting sign on your private property. You're allowed to do that sort of thing.
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LadySunami



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Haters can hate, but I got this one. It resonates. I appreciate it. It can be nearly impossible to carve out female space when God's in the room. Male authority is always peeking in over your shoulder, speaking like a voice in your head that what you're doing isn't right, isn't godly, isn't righteous, isn't the right way to be a woman. And that's when real male religious leaders aren't railing at you directly.

Shutting those voices up so you can be your own authority on your own nature and role is pretty much a lifetime struggle, if you were raised with it.

Yeah, the male dominance in most religious traditions is a very serious matter. I am so sick of male priests, bishops and popes telling me how I should behave. They insist on assigning feminine traits and gender roles to me, saying it isn't sexist as they are "equal in dignity" to male roles, only to turn around and berate men for exhibiting any of those "feminine traits" themselves. Their contempt for the feminine is astonishing! Women who act as men are sad souls that should be pitied and guided back to femaleness. Men who act like women are truly horrific creatures that deserve to be mocked and threatened with damnation. I guess that to be feminine is a horrible thing, that only women and girls should suffer! It's so sad some females are deluded into thinking they can do better. They only make it harder on themselves.

I like the feminine bits of myself just fine, but I'm tired of them being highlighted as evidence of my "female destiny" by robed men who make it clear they truly find these traits base and ungodly. (Pretty clothes and jewelry? They're good things for you to have, but don't have too many, spend to much on them, or be too gaudy or too slutty. Asexual? Brilliant! You can avoid temptation! But you'd still ought to be willing to marry and have children anyway. It's the right thing to do! Empathetic? Proof women like you are the heart of the church! That doesn't mean you should get any authority though... it would would be too hard on you.)

It's so strange how religious men are blind to way their constant anti-gay rhetoric shows so much contempt for women. Being attracted to men? Wearing flowery clothes? Being married without having biological babies? Such horrible tragedies! (If you pay attention, greatest scorn for gay men is always the horror of them being sexually attracted to other men and/or dressing/acting like women. When lesbians aren't outright ignored, it's about the tragedy of them not experiencing the whole from sex until birth thing naturally.)

Bleh, sorry for the frustrated rant.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
It's almost like I come in from a long day at work, and I see racist, sexist, homophobic pricks shitting up my unwind space every day and actually get angry about it.


Unwinding with the Comics Subforum seems like a recipe for a heart attack.

Re: The actual discussion, I don't really see a problem with gender clubs, male or female, as long as the participants willingly join, and as long as they don't reinforce negative behavior. If women want a space where they can openly talk about women's issues with other women, that's cool. If men the same thing, that's cool too. What's not cool though, is making a space where you can openly be an asshole and furthermore be reinforced by other people also being assholes (sexism, homophobia, racism, etc).

However I will admit from personal experience clubs in general have an unfortunate tendency to be less of an inclusive thing and more about excluding others to create some kind of twisted sense of superiority or 'exclusiveness'.
'

That's actually one of the reasons I wound up not apply to a college when I was in highschool. I was looking into one place, and I was already kinda iffy about it (gender segregated dorms, no AC in the dorms in NORTH CAROLINA, etc), but when the recruiter said "We pride ourselves not on the calibur of the student we accept, but on the caliber of the students we *turn away*" NOPE NOPE NOPE alarm bells starting firing in my head.
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