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Feminism because why not make a thread for it?
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
It could have something to do with the whole telling a minority how it should do its business in response to prejudice - or the assumption that the people responding must simply be unaware that some people are simply ignorant and that if they only knew clearly they'd offer to teach this person what's what.

Now granted, I'm not Snorri and I can't really speak for him. But it seems to me that once again you're attributing a message to his posts that isn't there.
The way I read it, his posts on this have been descriptive, not prescriptive. He's not trying to tell anybody how to respond, he's pointing to a problem that exists where communication breaks down based on the different assumptions, background knowledge, and starting points of the sides involved. From my reading it looks like this happened:
"People have a hard time over this because X and Y are working with different assumptions and when those conflict, things flare up."
"DON'T YOU TELL ME WHAT TO DO!"

Quote:
There is an expectation that people from minorities should be gentle souls willing and able to offer teachable moments to any wayward souls that say ignorant things. No matter how ignominious or how many ignorant, insulting, degrading things that minority person has heard that day. That pisses me off.

And maybe I'm just tone deaf on the internet, but again this isn't something I'm getting out of the posts you were responding to.

Quote:
I wasn't expecting to read what Snorri wrote, and I was actually going to post that this was another sign of progress - someone who was ignorant was called out, and even though they lashed out at first, they listened about the issue and then apologized. That is progress, and that makes me happy. That is still not the norm, but it is becoming more common.

Which is pretty much what Snorri was describing in the first place, in a fairly neutral and objective way. But instead of your considered and on-target post, the reply he got was accusatory bullshit like "As long as the normal people like Snorri are happy, fuck the rest of us!" How's that work, again?
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, sorry, another cis white male weighing in here, but I'm not sure who you're yelling at here. I think everyone is saying it was shit he made the comments in the first place, but he did so out of ignorance not hate, and he was called on it, and educated about what he said and apologised. That seems to be what happened.

I think the analogy to race is distracting and doesn't make a whole heap of sense. Not least of all because I'm going to go ahead and assume the majority of American children learn about racism in Primary school.

While trans people have been around for as long as everyone else your fight for public, mainstream acceptance is incredibly young. Preferred terminology is still in a state of evolution, and yes you have suffered and yes you will continue to suffer on the long, dangerous road to mainstream acceptance, but in this thread you expressing disdain for your allies for not being good enough.

Of course, again, I am a cis, white male, and although an occasional drag queen have no idea what your struggle is like. I am not trying to tell you as a person of a maligned minority how to react to being discriminated against, but I would question your behaviour towards Snorri and, as Wheels says, all those words you keep putting in his mouth.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did not make my original response narrow enough. Maybe if I had waited, I wouldn't have made two long ranty posts. So my apologies for that.

My issue has more to do with the sentiment that transgender people have to behave nicer if they expect to accomplish anything than the actual incident itself. It isn't these individual people's job to teach this random person. There are groups and individual activists who do take the time to educate; suggesting that all trans peope do so and not complain anytime an ignorant person does something offensive is itself offensive.

Saying that no one bothered to educate him, and then going on to say transgender people need to be nicer if they want people to listen to them - what is that saying exactly?

How young do you think this fight is? Do you hold gay people to the same standard?
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who said that trans people had to behave nicer? Give us a quote.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Who said that trans people had to behave nicer? Give us a quote.


Then what is the point of saying people are jumping on this guy and that's bad?

And I forgot to address the racism thing - there are lots of people who don't learn about racism. Large portions of the south, for example. So when someone from the south does something offensive out of ignorance, what should the reaciton be? Do you think people are justified in jumping on Paula Deen for example?
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Who said that trans people had to behave nicer? Give us a quote.

Then what is the point of saying people are jumping on this guy and that's bad?

Where?

Since you are apparently not in a mood to actually go back and support your own accusations, I'll quote everything Snorri said before and after you jumped in and unloaded on him.
Snorri wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Penny arcades current scandal Legitimate transphobia or internet tempest in a teapot made worse by someone doubling down. Are the reactions in proportion to the offense?
Given that we've gathered a pretty decent cadre of people identifying as trans i'd like to hear some takes.
Given PAX's generally safe and friendly reputation vs harassment and my own tendency to reply to peoples pedantic nitpicking with "go fuck yourself" I'm leaning toward tempest in a teapot.

We've had a discussion about this over on the pa forums. It's a tempest in a teapot, Mike has the tendency to get into shit and then deeper shit by responding very harshly. The guy who runs all the actual things, Robert Khoo, knows this but keeping up with twitter is kinda hard.
Mike has apologised about this shit and posted a discussion he's had with a friend who is transgender who explained to him what the actual problem was (no one else actually bothered to do that) and he totally realised he was wrong. Also donated 20k to charity.
Which shows what the actual fucking problem here really was. At the moment internet-feminists from the Shakesville way of things don't actually speak the same language as others. Mike couldn't understand the problem with saying "Women have vaginas". Because that isn't actually a wrong statement according to most people. This is literally what you learn in school everywhere, even the most transgender friendly countries.

Snorri wrote:
fritterdonut wrote:
Well, this guy said some pretty fucking stupid shit, and then compounded it by repeatedly posting petty inflammatory arguments. It wasn't just saying that "Women have a vagina".
[img]...[/img]
Then again, I've never been a fan of Penny Arcade.

To be fair he responded to someone saying: "Holy fuck I hate cis men." He legitimately thought cis was some kind of slur.
I'm not saying he wasn't being ignorant. I'm simply saying that being ignorant of transgender issues is the motherfucking norm. The nomenclature and theories within modern feminism aren't actually things anyone outside of some internet circles and academia are aware of. Most people aren't even aware of the issues, expecting them to be aware of them and having thought about them is just silly.

And then you jumped in, I jumped in, and then we get this more explicit explanation addressing the kerfluffle in here:
Snorri wrote:
WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
[snip]

Okay yes exactly what you just said. We are running into a problem of translation here where people look to be speaking the same language aren't speaking the same language at all. It's not that there is a problem with the LBGT movement, it's that they are a bit quick to assume that others outside of the movement are aware of what happens within the movement. Mike looks like he's totally in the internet just like you and me, but he isn't actually. He hasn't read up about it, and I was saying that that is the norm. As in, away from the internet the world isn't knowledgeable about these issues.
I'm not saying that being ignorant of the issues is okay. I'm saying that you should expect it. And that you should understand that it's currently the norm because most folk out there aren't aware for the simple reason that they haven't been told. You see all kinds of sweet stories about how a group of people learned to accept a friend of theirs being transgender, but realise that that shows where the issue is. People are changing their entire way of thinking because they know transgender people. If you don't know any how could you even start changing your mind?

Please select the part that got you all hot and bothered in the first place since everybody else is apparently missing it. I am not seeing, either in the first two or the follow-up posts, anything that says trans people should behave nicer. Can you pick it out for me?
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Who said that trans people had to behave nicer? Give us a quote.


Then what is the point of saying people are jumping on this guy and that's bad?

And I forgot to address the racism thing - there are lots of people who don't learn about racism. Large portions of the south, for example. So when someone from the south does something offensive out of ignorance, what should the reaciton be? Do you think people are justified in jumping on Paula Deen for example?


* some webcomic artist who, one day, had a bunch of people tweet stuff like "CIS SCUM AAAAAA" at him because he said something that was insensitive to an issue he wasn't really aware of, and subsequently mistook "cis" for a slur of some kind, and then spent the rest of the week apologizing for his own knee-jerk reaction to that in addition to his initial statements because someone talked him down and he learned about the issue and realized that he was wrong and made an actual effort at making amends

VS

* Paula Deen, someone I never heard of before this, and hope to never hear anything about ever again, but yet someone who is on television, who flat-out uses slurs that are insensitive to an issue that she most certainly is aware of, slurs that, in fact, rely upon that awareness -- someone who is clearly casually racist



hmmmmmmm


I mean, I don't particularly mind that people jumped on this guy for his initial statements -- they infuriated me, too -- but...
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay then, I'm done, because I'm either just entirely misunderstanding everything, or I'm not able to make myself understood, or something else.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll have to go forward with only the evidence I have so far.

Snorri wasn't saying that people SHOULD talk a certain way, he was saying that they DO talk a certain way. You are reading too much into that part of his posts.

By reading too much into it you turned it into a kind of blame game. At that point you stopped listening to what people were actually saying and started building up straw men to burn down. You argued against things nobody here was saying or defending.

And personally, I think you did an incredible job. The experiences you related and the way you succinctly phrased things was very effect. If only they had been aimed at the right people.

You aren't normally this much of blockhead so I've been trying to both give you the benefit of the doubt ('cos I could be wrong) and let you see how the thing you blew up over wasn't really there in the first place. I know this is an incredibly important issue for you, and I suspected that you were just letting prior bad experiences color your interpretation of the discussion. Frankly I don't know if the kind of attitudes you were railing against go on in blogs, news sites, other parts of the forum like the Comics discussion section, but around here nobody really thinks that way. You don't have to go into these threads with your finger twitching over a hair trigger, even if you've felt like that's necessary in other places.
In General Discussion and Casual Chat we're all a fairly introspective, knowledgeable, and open group. We're also fairly seasoned Internet ArguersTM who tend to know better than to go spouting off Limbaugh-esque opinions as if they were incontrovertible facts or received moral wisdom. Just something to keep in mind next time you run across a post that seems pants-on-head retarded around here.


You're misunderstanding things, yes. That's what fucking everybody's been saying. You couldn't let anybody's message get past the chip on your shoulder to have that mistake sink in. Since I can't get anything out of you to the contrary, that's my opinion. Snorri might post something that changes my mind. If not, I guess that's the end of it.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:

You're misunderstanding things, yes. That's what fucking everybody's been saying. You couldn't let anybody's message get past the chip on your shoulder to have that mistake sink in.


That's why I said it's either I'm misunderstanding things or I'm not explaining myself. I've also recognized there are some other things going on right now for me that color my ability to properly understand people. (For example, I'm late on taking my hormones, and that often dawns on me when I've gone around being a jerk for no real reason.)

I'd be happy to say, "Okay, cool, i'm totally wrong about everything, I will gladly take what I learned here today and go forth into the world a better person." But there is some stuff here that is not sitting right with me, so I'm going to re-read it later on. At any rate, I'm not going to be good and productive in discussion right now.

So I'll be putting my pants back on and stop showing my ass to everyone. I hope a good time was had by all.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that you are not actually suggesting that when Paula Deen planned a civil war era wedding with black people portraying the role of slaves she had no idea that might be construed as racist. She knew and she didn't care.

Penny Arcade guy didn't know and didn't care, and now does know and does care. How is that not a win?

As mentioned, no one said trans people should be nicer, although I think you could maybe have a bit of fucking patience with a thread full of people making an effort to understand trans issues.

Also, yes I think it is a young fight. Gay people have had mainstream acceptance for years now, including non-caricature representation in mainstream television. The fight for gay rights, i.e. marriage rights, is huge and, I think, a majority of people understand that being gay is nothing out of the ordinary.

Sadly, in the fight trans and other differently gendered people have fallen by the wayside. Where are the parliamentary debates for the right for two trans people to marry, or adopt?

I'm not trying to be cruel, but the fight for mainstream trans acceptance is young. I know it must be deeply frustrating and disheartening to see again and again someone publicly, and frequently willfully misunderstanding the concept as a whole. In this case someone publicly misunderstood, was admonished, educated and apologised.

Sure, why should you have to be sitting down and explaining to every schmuck that trundles along rambling about she-males? Well, you don't have to. But flying off the handle at a group of people who are constantly educating themselves and treat everyone as any other member of the community regardless of race of gender or identity is some horseshit.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have now had a juicebox and a nap. I'm sorry for going off the deep end.
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yay juicebox!
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Your point appears to be, "Hey, be understanding of ignorance, because most people have it!" Is that your point?


No my point is that you have to understand that people are ignorant. That is, people might legitimately not understand what you're talking about so wait and establish what the actual problem seems to be. Not all ignorance is wilful ignorance. Sometimes people aren't aware, it happens more frequently the more complex and new your ideas are. Being accepting of homosexuality is something pretty new for a large amount of people, surely you understand that understanding transgender is even more of a new thing?


I'm not excusing ignorance. I'm saying that you have to differentiate between ignorance out of hate and ignorance out of simply not being exposed to something.

I mean, that's basically it. Part of Mike's revelation and apology was him suddenly hearing that he was already exposed to the issues of transgender identity and didn't even realize it or cared. Most people don't want to be dicks, sometimes they just seem to be because they're ignorant. And people often don't realize their ignorance. And it takes time to mentally adjust after realizing their ignorance. I mean, we sort of excuse racist grandmas because they come from a time where racism was the norm but our views of the world are almost solidified by the age of 25 so we gotta understand that adjusting that takes time when you've been raised to believe something else.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
It could have something to do with the whole telling a minority how it should do its business in response to prejudice - or the assumption that the people responding must simply be unaware that some people are simply ignorant and that if they only knew clearly they'd offer to teach this person what's what.


Oh man I seriously did not mean to do any of that and I just now realize that I might have come of as that. I apologise for sounding like I was doing that but I assure you that that was not my intention. My intention as always was explaining where I saw what the problem is and how to deal with it as a matter of helping. To clarify the issue as it were. It might be ironic (or not, I dunno) that in doing so I wasn't being clear and caused problems with the issue of my intention.

I am absolutely not advocating the "be gentle and never pushy and eventually people will get around to understanding you. just don't be all up in our face about it." I fully support the idea that we must confront and be harsh and push for acceptance not just in a legal sense but in the actual beliefs held sense. And we shouldn't accept bigotry as something that is okay.


I was just saying that being a dick on twitter to people isn't likely to get results. It is a complex issue and explaining complex issues takes more words.
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