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2013-06-29: Pedotron Needs Little Girls
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
In what capacity were you working with them? As a psychologist or psychoanalyst, or a care worker, or...?

As a teacher. That's why I can't say I know anything more than what I've observed. You learn and help students, but there's only so far you can fully get involved. I wouldn't pretend to be a counselor. I can only be a helpful/caring adult.


Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Your language is still extremely apologetic. I think its completely noble to want to give support to people who harbour these feelings and never act on them and it is also extremely important to do so. But I also think when it comes to CHILD ABUSE we should not be engaging in shades of grey. Did you molest a child? Yes? You are going to jail. There should be no 'did you try really hard not to molest a child?' or 'did you do it for POWAH?'.

I am so completely in agreement with Tekii. Yes, people react to abuse differently, but surely that has as much to do with the 'type' of abuse as it does the person who is abused, the abuser and their relationship to the person, what happened surrounding that, etc. etc.

And that's why I say there's no room in the law for differing sentences. Me having more hate for one person doesn't make me want to be lenient.

stripeypants wrote:
I don't think advocating that pedophiles should be understood as having a medical problem that needs treating requires diminishing the experience of victims of child abuse.

This^

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Now, you have a tendency to come back and say THAT'S NOT WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT LEARN TO READ and then repeat, what I think, is the same thing again. So its either my reading comprehension or your expression, but you come across as attempting to defend people who molest children 'just a bit' which I know is not the case, but feel you should be aware thats how your posts are coming across.

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
And I do not object to that, I object to casual language and the idea that a rapists intent should inform their punishment.

My casual language is because I'm trying to stay non-emotional about it. Because I hate child molesters, yet there's other issues I have to keep level-headed about to talk about. I'm not much better than anyone else in this. The idea of it being an illness conflicts with my desire to eradicate the effects of someone who actually acts on those desires.

I'm not letting my emotions cloud the issue I started with, which is that pedophiles are treated as criminals before they act and that only causes us to alienate them. (Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the best course is to harass/kill anyone who has those thoughts, but it's simply my approach.) As I said before in the form of a question, if someone had come in here and accidentally mentioned they had thoughts for children, I would wager people would have figuratively torn them to shreds. Now there are some people that are pretty shitty people to begin with, and if I found out one of them had those thoughts, I'd say it's fine to be another thing to lambaste them with. But what I'm talking about is someone who seems otherwise nice will instantly garner hate from everyone if they let anyone know. I can't really blame people for feeling that way. I have to fight my own urges that are brought on from my own hatred for child molesters. Still, I believe that just makes stopping pedophiles from becoming child molesters harder. I feel society needs to embrace it as a very SERIOUS and EXTREMELY punishable mental illness if it's acted on. Separate the thoughts from the actions and so on.


This all started because I agreed with joandark on the first page that it's a serious medical condition (and disagreed with how straightforward they put it). Some of the things you have taken as me defending were actually me be troubled by the situation as I have a seething hatred for child molesters. Because while I agreed with them that it's a real problem that affects people, I had to actually stop and think about it to be able to be level-headed about it. I try and always approach things methodically though if I can. I feel more change is brought by teaching people what's right than attacking what's wrong. People hide away when attacked and close their minds to new knowledge.

If my language seems lax, it's that I'm working to be objective. I'm not playing devil's advocate or anything like that, but stopping to think about the consequences of labeling people as criminals before they choose to be is something I find important. (And in this case, it's always CHOICE. Like has been said, you can't accidentally molest a child.)
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said that because you were diminishing the experiences of children who were suffering abuse. The things pedophile abusers do to children is awful and should not be condoned. Anything that can be done to stop pedophiles from abusing children is good (Unless it is ineffective or the specific method has bad points that outweigh its effectiveness.)

I feel compassion and would love to see help available for people with unwanted pedophilia - but that really isn't my main concern when dealing with pedophilia. My main concern is the kids, who are often not protected from abuse and have very limited means of stopping it, if they have any at all.

I also think that mental help for any abusive person is an awesome way to reduce abuse. And I feel for anyone whose mental problems causes them to abuse other people. The situation isn't good for anyone. What I'm not going to do is suggest that abuse victims are anything but harmed by the situation.

Perhaps you could make it more clear that you are supporting the rehabilitation of pedophiles by not even going into anything about how some victims aren't harmed, or that we need to soften our idea of what pedophilia is. We can have a new understanding about pedophiles as people who are in need of mental help, but we should never downplay the abuse or potential for abuse.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
Adyon wrote:
Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
In what capacity were you working with them? As a psychologist or psychoanalyst, or a care worker, or...?

As a teacher. That's why I can't say I know anything more than what I've observed. You learn and help students, but there's only so far you can fully get involved. I wouldn't pretend to be a counselor. I can only be a helpful/caring adult.


Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Your language is still extremely apologetic. I think its completely noble to want to give support to people who harbour these feelings and never act on them and it is also extremely important to do so. But I also think when it comes to CHILD ABUSE we should not be engaging in shades of grey. Did you molest a child? Yes? You are going to jail. There should be no 'did you try really hard not to molest a child?' or 'did you do it for POWAH?'.

I am so completely in agreement with Tekii. Yes, people react to abuse differently, but surely that has as much to do with the 'type' of abuse as it does the person who is abused, the abuser and their relationship to the person, what happened surrounding that, etc. etc.

And that's why I say there's no room in the law for differing sentences. Me having more hate for one person doesn't make me want to be lenient.

stripeypants wrote:
I don't think advocating that pedophiles should be understood as having a medical problem that needs treating requires diminishing the experience of victims of child abuse.

This^

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Now, you have a tendency to come back and say THAT'S NOT WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT LEARN TO READ and then repeat, what I think, is the same thing again. So its either my reading comprehension or your expression, but you come across as attempting to defend people who molest children 'just a bit' which I know is not the case, but feel you should be aware thats how your posts are coming across.

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
And I do not object to that, I object to casual language and the idea that a rapists intent should inform their punishment.

My casual language is because I'm trying to stay non-emotional about it. Because I hate child molesters, yet there's other issues I have to keep level-headed about to talk about. I'm not much better than anyone else in this. The idea of it being an illness conflicts with my desire to eradicate the effects of someone who actually acts on those desires.

I'm not letting my emotions cloud the issue I started with, which is that pedophiles are treated as criminals before they act and that only causes us to alienate them. (Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the best course is to harass/kill anyone who has those thoughts, but it's simply my approach.) As I said before in the form of a question, if someone had come in here and accidentally mentioned they had thoughts for children, I would wager people would have figuratively torn them to shreds. Now there are some people that are pretty shitty people to begin with, and if I found out one of them had those thoughts, I'd say it's fine to be another thing to lambaste them with. But what I'm talking about is someone who seems otherwise nice will instantly garner hate from everyone if they let anyone know. I can't really blame people for feeling that way. I have to fight my own urges that are brought on from my own hatred for child molesters. Still, I believe that just makes stopping pedophiles from becoming child molesters harder. I feel society needs to embrace it as a very SERIOUS and EXTREMELY punishable mental illness if it's acted on. Separate the thoughts from the actions and so on.

This all started because I agreed with joandark on the first page that it's a serious medical condition (and disagreed with how straightforward they put it). Some of the things you have taken as me defending were actually me be troubled by the situation as I have a seething hatred for child molesters. Because while I agreed with them that it's a real problem that affects people, I had to actually stop and think about it to be able to be level-headed about it. I try and always approach things methodically though if I can. I feel more change is brought by teaching people what's right than attacking what's wrong. People hide away when attacked and close their minds to new knowledge.

If my language seems lax, it's that I'm working to be objective. I'm not playing devil's advocate or anything like that, but stopping to think about the consequences of labeling people as criminals before they choose to be is something I find important. (And in this case, it's always CHOICE. Like has been said, you can't accidentally molest a child.)


Okay, so you don't really need to be a noble samurai, you can actually say what you think. On the other hand, I don't think anyone is assuming you like child molesters, so assuring us of your seething hatred is about as weird as describing pedophilia as having 'troubling effects'.

Are you suggesting that out there somewhere there exists a child molester who a) controlled their urges without the use of pornography but then saw b) someone describe all pedophiles as molesters and then c) said OH WELL IF THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK OF ME and then d) molested a child?

I mean yes, of course, if someone came into the forum and said they had fantasies about molesting children OF COURSE they would be ripped to shreds -- what the fuck do you expect? Its fucking Dragonwriter all over again. Don't tell an internet forum, douchebag, tell a fucking doctor.

Pedophiles who have never acted on their urges should have a safe way to seek counseling but at the same time need to have that temptation removed.

Pedophilia is not a kooky sexual fantasy like someone who is sexually excited by putting their testicles on a little testicle bicycle and recreating key scenes from Quicksilver, it is a rape and power fantasy. If it is acted upon a child will be raped.

Like... what is this conversation? I don't know who we're trying to understand? Of COURSE we should be finding ways to deal with pedophilia BEFORE a child is raped.

But I think anyone with enough self awareness and who isn't an insane narcissist that can internally say oh my god I am attracted to children I need to fix this will not then turn around and go oh wah people think I'm a criminal just because I am attracted to children so I'm going to do it.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:

Okay, so you don't really need to be a noble samurai, you can actually say what you think. On the other hand, I don't think anyone is assuming you like child molesters, so assuring us of your seething hatred is about as weird as describing pedophilia as having 'troubling effects'.

See that's where I feel like the hold-up is. So by your count EVERYONE knows I don't like child molesters, yet I'm somehow I'm also seeming too lax. So I was being more straightforward with my thoughts.

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Are you suggesting that out there somewhere there exists a child molester who a) controlled their urges without the use of pornography but then saw b) someone describe all pedophiles as molesters and then c) said OH WELL IF THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK OF ME and then d) molested a child?

I mean yes, of course, if someone came into the forum and said they had fantasies about molesting children OF COURSE they would be ripped to shreds -- what the fuck do you expect? Its fucking Dragonwriter all over again. Don't tell an internet forum, douchebag, tell a fucking doctor.

You have this horrible misconception that people just randomly get up and go to a doctor because, "Oh golly gee, even though the WHOLE WORLD hates me, I think the best thing I can go do for this part of me I'm ashamed of is go find help. Nevermind that the I may not be aware the doctors out there and probably CAN'T consider how to afford anyway. Plus I'm committing to people KNOWING about my secrets forever." Most people don't know CRAP about doctors, conditions, there options or anything else. I mean, in the Feminism thread, you all showed it wasn't a big surprise that a man who uses the internet all the time isn't aware of a huge issue that's prevalent on the internet and in our world now. Yet, you think these people magically just know to and AREN'T afraid to get help for themselves? You're kidding me right?

The reason people are more likely to LET info slip like that on the internet, is that they feel anonymous for once. You think people would react any less violently in real life? Many parts of the world have people killing gay/transgendered people JUST for existing while hurting NO ONE. You think someone who has something that IS dangerous to someone, like a sexual attraction to little children, is going to want to admit to ANYONE, even a shrink or institution? Most probably fear they'll be permanently locked away or killed on the spot (and probably are right to fear that somewhat). SO YES. Alienating and chastising them DOES lead them to A-D on your list. Basic human psychology causes those who feel neglected and isolated to be more likely to regress into anti-social personality changes.


Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Pedophilia is not a kooky sexual fantasy like someone who is sexually excited by putting their testicles on a little testicle bicycle and recreating key scenes from Quicksilver, it is a rape and power fantasy. If it is acted upon a child will be raped.

And you're also ignorant of what pedophilia is. Power fantasy is only one TYPE of pedophilia. A lot of people simply look at a child and become aroused the same way a heterosexual man would with an adult woman. It grosses me out, but I admit it happens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia
As is evident in from there, people certain models actually define pedophiles as someone who has ACTED on their desires. So, in that lack of distinction, where to do we approach the people who haven't and get them help when we don't even have a true way to describe them?

stripeypants wrote:
I said that because you were diminishing the experiences of children who were suffering abuse. The things pedophile abusers do to children is awful and should not be condoned. Anything that can be done to stop pedophiles from abusing children is good (Unless it is ineffective or the specific method has bad points that outweigh its effectiveness.)

And I don't believe treating someone like a criminal before they do anything over something they can't control constitutes a good method. I think it makes MORE people want to HIDE their true beliefs and NEVER TALK TO ANYONE ABOUT IT except other places they'll be accpeted. So now by isolating them from society instead of trying to talk with them enough to push them to get help, they get isolated to areas they're accepted to places where TRUE child molesters hang out and can influence them instead of the general public. I don't see that helping anyone.


TL;DR
Simply...I do not condone pedophiles or forgive child molesters. But I think people are willfully ignorant of what pedophilia fully actually IS. Then I believe people make it so obvious that pedophiles will be attacked if anyone were to learn their true thoughts, that those same pedophiles WILL NEVER seek help. Then after they have spent enough time ostracized, they may act upon urges they never would have had they been able to get help earlier.

Double TL;DR
I think our current approach is actually INCREASING the risk of child molesters in our society.

--
Now you can call my methods stupid and disagree, but that's my point and way of thinking at least at current. (I always reserve the right to change my mind if I find studies that show otherwise)
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:

Double TL;DR
I think our current approach is actually INCREASING the risk of child molesters in our society.



Based on what?
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on...people who are sexually attracted to children not seeking help before it grows and manifests into something bigger. Soooo...Based on pretty much everything else I said.

Like I said, you can disagree with me. Maybe people think if we yell at them enough about how bad they are, they'll repent before they do something? I disagree and think that's not how people's mentality works, but that's the fun thing about the world. Everyone has an opinion they're entitled to.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon wrote:
Based on...people who are sexually attracted to children not seeking help before it grows and manifests into something bigger. Soooo...Based on pretty much everything else I said.

Like I said, you can disagree with me. Maybe people think if we yell at them enough about how bad they are, they'll repent before they do something? I disagree and think that's not how people's mentality works, but that's the fun thing about the world. Everyone has an opinion they're entitled to.


Based on what study man, based on what beyond gut instinct, based on what that you can link to and show us how you came to the conclusion ?

Because if you're using a "innate goodness of mankind at least until people are mean to them" argument on me well....

My first person life experiences don't lend themselves to buying that innate goodness tripe.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heck, I'll be simple and say even based on something already linked here in this thread for one:
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/explaining-pedophilia

The original WebMD article talked about pretty much everything. On the second page where Ray Blanchard talked about their need to "get help" after he pointed out:
Quote:
"People do not choose to be attracted to children or adults any more than they choose to be attracted to males or females," Blanchard says. "If there is any choice in the situation, it is in how pedophiles manage their lives once they become fully aware of the direction of their sexual interests and the societal prohibitions against expressing them."


He adds a fact after:
Quote:
Most areas of North America have mandatory reporting laws that override patient confidentiality. "These require the clinician to report instances of child sexual abuse (or probable imminent abuse) to designated authorities," Blanchard says.

I agree that they should have to report instances of abuse or possibility. But that fact alone will prevent people from going in. It's the same reason my wife didn't want to see a doctor when she was having issues before getting health insurance. If something was found out to be wrong before so, it could ruin her chances of fixing it. (in this case as a pre-existing condition preventing health insurance at all)

It's only reasonable that people will be afraid of what happens if people find out something about them they know is universally condemned and hated. I don't think I have to link psychological studies to prove that. Most people don't even realize there's a system for help. And even within the system, those who feel like committing themselves to therapy probably know they run the risk of the Doctor reporting them to the authorities if he thinks they're at risk. That they may wonder if the doctor will be biased or not makes one more barrier.

But I also don't think I need to link an article to prove that people become defensive and shut down when attacked. Heck, I could link the the 30+ page thread where Dogen debated that with Kylra last year.
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Tekii



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you think they were less likely to commit child abuse when it didn't have the huge social stigma against them?
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When was there NOT a social stigma against that in which there was ALSO help available or studies of people that knew how to try and treat it?

And how few would anyone have studied that anyway? We only study areas we're looking to change. Our current model is mostly universally accepted. Wait until they commit the crime and send them into therapy while imprisoned. Well, the child is already hurt. You can't undo that now. Only recently has it started being talked about to pre-treat.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely nothing in that indicates that society's reaction to them is actually increasing the chance that they'll act on their urges.

So basically directly from your ass because its "nicer" to be understanding.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't undo the harm done to the child, but you can try to make sure the offender doesn't re-offend.

Lessening the stigma against people who want treatment for pedophilia absolutely can not involve saying anything that sounds like, "Sometimes child abuse is not that bad." We have to be just as angry about it as we are now, maybe more so. Because it seems far more likely that society would just accept sexual abuse of children if we start saying offenders are not so bad.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Lessening the stigma against people who want treatment for pedophilia absolutely can not involve saying anything that sounds like, "Sometimes child abuse is not that bad." We have to be just as angry about it as we are now, maybe more so. Because it seems far more likely that society would just accept sexual abuse of children if we start saying offenders are not so bad.

Never have I indicated a desire to say "offenders" are not so bad. I don't get where this notion comes from, other than maybe me being overly wordy. Nor have I once indicated in anything I wrote I'd be for making child abuse seem anything other than a horrible sin against humanity. I actually think that it should involve harsher punishments than it does now. I'm only talking about people who haven't done anything. Offenders should be locked away.

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
So basically directly from your ass because its "nicer" to be understanding.

Actually, it's not about being nice. It's about getting the world to recognize it's a mental illness and not an action. Not only is this about "self-help" and people willing to commit themselves to treatment. This is about societies not recognizing it as anything other than the action. The majority of our country who turns out to be "child molesters" are very much ORDINARY. Because of that, even in cases where someone is a child molester, no one recognizes it, because the person seems normal, married and happy. http://www.childmolestationprevention.org/pages/tell_others_the_facts.html

That's why all organizations for preventing it stress the importance of correct terminology. If people only see it as an action, we get cases like "George's story" in the link above. People ignore suspicions because they don't understand the disease. It's about separating the action from the disease so that we can take steps to address people with it before they ever get a chance to molest a child in the first place. Society thinks you just "make a choice" and become a child molester, and after that there's no coming back. Therefore, it should be easy to tell, and you have no reason to doubt your friends and neighbors.

http://www.childmolestationprevention.org/pages/act.html
Quote:
So, what's our biggest obstacle here? Most people have never heard of the tests. A sex test scares them. Why? Because they have it backwards. If you tell them that there is an immense difference between pedophiles and all the people who aren't pedophiles, they'll absolutely agree. But they won't talk about a sex drive directed at children.

They'll tell you that pedophiles are immensely different in their obvious outward characteristics. They'll say - a mistaken belief - that pedophiles neither look nor behave like any friend of theirs or any member of their family.

Quote:
The pedophile is dealing with a sex drive so immensely different from the sex drive of most of us that people who don't have it can barely imagine it exists.

Since most people don't understand what causes a man like George to (in the minds of his neighbors), suddenly sexually molest a child; they don't believe a test could possibly work.

Not my favorite site on the matter, but one that says it a lot more plainly than others.
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Adyon



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything above was my original talking point. The part about not attacking them outright was something that everyone got side-tracked on and I ended up focusing on. But people seem to be unable to distinguish the concept of the illness not being the action, so I repeated a lot. I really can't comprehend why it's hard to separate the two for people, but I guess that seems to be the norm.

As for WHY my own beliefs? Why I believe that coming at someone confrontationally doesn't help? I formed those long ago from my psychology courses during under-grad. So, I guess you can say they're talking out my ass, but whatever. I don't really care. I stated many times, that part is MY OPINION. And unless I find a reason or new research to change my opinion, it's not changing. Link me some studies on persuasion techniques that SHOW attacking someone changes their mind and maybe I'll think about it. And do a good job. Cause Kylra didn't manage to change my opinion on the matter. I found Dogen's information much more insightful.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adyon, I think I get where you're coming from. I think I get where everyone else is coming from, too, and I don't think there's actually much disagreement in principle. But, you're right, the terminology isn't well understood, and I think that's where a disconnect is happening here.

Someone who molests a child needs to be put away, and face heavy consequences, and that child needs every bit of help and support a society can offer, whether or not the molester was actually experiencing pedophilia or not.

Someone who experiences pedophilia is not automatically a child molester, but may be in danger of becoming one.

Not treating them like they are automatically a molester, but still recognizing they are at risk for becoming one and seriously offering lessened-stigma, realistic, and attractive help to mitigate their pedophilia may prevent them from ever crossing that line, and thus prevent a child from suffering abuse.

Am I getting warm?
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