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7/1/2013 Calligraphy 42
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1054

PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Rune wrote:
Arkhron wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
you are conflating anger with violence.


Yeah, sorry. I forgot that anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering. Razz


Much as I respect the Star Wars, Lucas filled Yoda's mouth with utter crap on that one.

One can be angry without hating. One can hate without anger.

Anger can lead to motivation that can end suffering.

I could rant for a while about flaws I find in the Jedi code.

I'll spare you all.

You're welcome.


Wouldn't THAT have been a more interesting Episode III, with their own flawed code being shown as the explicit reason for their downfall.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH MY GOD YES.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arguably, it sort of was; Anakin went to the dark side because of attachments the Jedi Code told him not to have, and those attachments are exactly how Palpatine got him. and arguably, Yoda and Obi-Wan eventually figured it out, since they never pushed the "have no attachments" thing on Luke*.

*of course, this is after you smooth out the stories into a coherent whole, rather than the insane gibbering that Lucas is likely to give you.
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Rune wrote:
Arkhron wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
you are conflating anger with violence.


Yeah, sorry. I forgot that anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering. :P


Much as I respect the Star Wars, Lucas filled Yoda's mouth with utter crap on that one.

One can be angry without hating. One can hate without anger.

Anger can lead to motivation that can end suffering.

I could rant for a while about flaws I find in the Jedi code.

I'll spare you all.

You're welcome.


Please, go for it. I know a person that really loves the jedi thing and I need new things to throw at him xD

I am saying that there was a lot, a big fucknormous pile of violence in the india independence, from 1943 to 1946. But there was a movement in the inside that went on with hunger strikes and passive resistance that, in the long run, achieve the political success.

The portuguese revolution is a better example, it started as a militar coup that turned a popular and pacific-non-hating one when the people knew what was cooking.

In the other hand, I am not saying that this should be the way to go for feminism (although the right to women vote was won in a pacific way :P). Rage is a valid feel when you stop and see. For example, if you search "Man beats woman" in youtube you can fill up your rage tank for almost a month.

How do you express that rage is another thing. Feelings should be the fuel of the machine, sure, but if your speech departs from arguments to feelings the dudebros are going to mock your feeble weeble chick mind.

And closing my argument, this was a response to

Samsally wrote:
merest wrote:
Rage isn't the only blueprint for change, though, nor, perhaps, in the real world, the best.


By all means, enlighten us. Bonus points if you can actually site historical evidence of massive social upheaval happening without a bunch of people being pissed as hell.


And a mellow one, I remark ^^
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yoda -totally- pushed the 'have no attachments' on Luke when he told Luke explicitly to not go off half cocked to save Leia from Cloud City.

Plus, then Lucas was like "BEE TEE DOUBLE YOU, they're totes siblings" and shot any romantic arc they could have had into creepy incest hell, thereby freeing Luke from even the most basic romantic attachment when the movies ended.

ALSO if you read all the books that shit comes up over and over and over again and Mara Jade is basically like "This is complete bullshit. COMPLETELY" and then finally convinces him to make babies.

But not before Callisto fucks with his head a little.

It's entirely possible I've made at least half of this up. It's been a -really- long time.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkhron: Mostly it revolves around my super mixed feelings about the idea that balance is what people need to strive for. I can't get over the idea that passionate feelings are supposedly bad. I rather like being passionate about things and while I'm not one of those people that's passionate about -everything- I feel like my life would be a lot less fulfilling if I stopped being passionate about some stuff.

Some old dead philosopher (I refuse to look up who it was) had the idea that you could only get true peace by balancing sorrow and happiness and it seems like the Jedi code really pushes that idea, too. I can't get over the feeling that the bumps are worth it, though. Like as bad as things can get, it's totally worth it for those moments where you're just over flowing with joy.

Basically, I refuse to quell the joy I can get and I'm a hopeless romantic at heart.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkhron wrote:
The portuguese revolution is a better example, it started as a militar coup that turned a popular and pacific-non-hating one when the people knew what was cooking.


it's not an example of what you're trying to argue, though. unless you mean to say that none of the people who flooded out into the streets to support the coup that toppled Estado Novo were angry about anything. once again you're conflating anger and violence, when the Carnation Revolution itself is fairly stark evidence that people--even big crowds of people--can be angry without being violent.

Samsally wrote:
Yoda -totally- pushed the 'have no attachments' on Luke when he told Luke explicitly to not go off half cocked to save Leia from Cloud City.


yeah, and that got him his ass kicked and his hand cut off, and his friends had to save themselves. which was the whole reason why Yoda told him to stay put; "not ready for the burden, were you." it wasn't a lesson not to have attachments, it was a lesson not to let that control you. Luke did, and Vader beat the shit out of him for it.

throughout the novels Luke has a tortured love life that involves his love interests dying and such. so by the time he's with Mara he's reluctant to be attached to people for a whole host of reasons that don't boil down to "it's the Jedi way." Mara more or less calls him on that specifically in Vision of the Future.
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Arkhron



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I am really lost, ShadowCell. No sarcasm here, but then, Toasty is going to be ragish-but-not-violent against that bad man or what?
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should pay better attention before disagreeing with someone.

Samsally wrote:
merest wrote:
Rage isn't the only blueprint for change, though, nor, perhaps, in the real world, the best.


By all means, enlighten us. Bonus points if you can actually site historical evidence of massive social upheaval happening without a bunch of people being pissed as hell.

Arkhron wrote:
I don't want to be a spoilsport, but what about Gandhi and the Indian independence on 1946?

Or the Carnation Revolution* of portugal in 1974, where no shots nor violence was done.

I know that there are only two drops of peaceful politic/social change in the middle of a violent revolution sea, but hey, sometimes peace happens ^^

ShadowCell wrote:
you are conflating anger with violence.

That no violence was done (at least by Gandhi or under his direction, since Indian independence was in fact extremely bloody) is not the same as people not being angry. So Indian independence isn't an example that fulfills Samsally's criteria unless they aren't angry, which they were.
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Last edited by Dogen on Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
arguably, it sort of was; Anakin went to the dark side because of attachments the Jedi Code told him not to have, and those attachments are exactly how Palpatine got him. and arguably, Yoda and Obi-Wan eventually figured it out, since they never pushed the "have no attachments" thing on Luke*.

*of course, this is after you smooth out the stories into a coherent whole, rather than the insane gibbering that Lucas is likely to give you.


It's sort of there as a story you can write yourself by carefully filtering through the one that was actually told. But if you have to do that much work, I don't really consider it being written so much as being accidentally present potential.

Considering the whole thing is a space-samurai flick, I think the stoopid no-feels crap comes from a shallow and nihilistic misunderstanding of certain eastern philosophies.

But, seriously, the film could have explored that, could have told of a populist resistance to the calcified old religion, could have actually been romantic, could have could have could have.

But was too busy telling the story of Golden Boy Goes Bad Because He Has A Whine And A Mad.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
It's sort of there as a story you can write yourself by carefully filtering through the one that was actually told. But if you have to do that much work, I don't really consider it being written so much as being accidentally present potential.


well, that's the virtue of Star Wars. whether it was intentional or simply the storyteller's ineptitude, you can interpret it in numerous ways that make it look like the product of a better mind than that of George Lucas. i don't think the story of the Jedi Order's failures with Anakin is buried that deep; when they're fighting, Obi-Wan never blames Anakin for his attachments, he blames him for his choice of allegiance and his actions. although it is hard to see when it's Anakin who pretty much rolls out of bed and starts killing children.

anyway, to conclude, sand is coarse.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
Rune wrote:
It's sort of there as a story you can write yourself by carefully filtering through the one that was actually told. But if you have to do that much work, I don't really consider it being written so much as being accidentally present potential.


well, that's the virtue of Star Wars. whether it was intentional or simply the storyteller's ineptitude, you can interpret it in numerous ways that make it look like the product of a better mind than that of George Lucas. i don't think the story of the Jedi Order's failures with Anakin is buried that deep; when they're fighting, Obi-Wan never blames Anakin for his attachments, he blames him for his choice of allegiance and his actions. although it is hard to see when it's Anakin who pretty much rolls out of bed and starts killing children.

anyway, to conclude, sand is coarse.


Unlike things that are not coarse like sand.

Anyway, point is, the movie would have been a lot better if that was the story that was -told- rather than just allowed to kind of exist behind the one that was. Some people can artfully include background layers and have it be meaningful. I don't think anyone can argue that's really what happened here.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to be honest, there are things i find more concerning about the prequels than what the Jedi are told to do with their feels anyways.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
to be honest, there are things i find more concerning about the prequels than what the Jedi are told to do with their feels anyways.


Tru dat.
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
merest wrote:
Rage isn't the only blueprint for change, though, nor, perhaps, in the real world, the best.


By all means, enlighten us. Bonus points if you can actually site historical evidence of massive social upheaval happening without a bunch of people being pissed as hell.


Since you mention enlightenment, what of the Enlightenment itself? It brought on enormous social change. Someone else mentioned Gandhi. The Agricultural Revolution was brought about by the cheap manufacture of nitrogen. Any number of positive changes to society have been wrought by changes to laws, such as to Britain's penal code. Sometimes these changes have involved not anger, but pity or common-sense.

Although someone usually winds up getting upset no matter what happens, a corollary is not always a cause. I would be a little disappointed in human nature if rage turned out to be the sole effective method of changing society. It would reduce social reform to a type of warfare - a series of Revolutions that somehow didn't wind up Reigns of Terror.

I don't have a comprehensive theory of social change, nor a Marxist-style vision of the steps that should be taken to reach an ideal society, so I admit to feeling on uncertain ground here. But I do think that if anger can be replaced with something less close to hatred, without compromising effective action, it probably should be.
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