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2013-06-29: Pedotron Needs Little Girls
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy shit I never got that far, Spike was a rapist?!
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Leohan wrote:
a guy having a collection of kiddie porn in his house has automatically become unlikable, regardless of past or future.

Child porn is created by abusing children. So, yeah, collecting it would make you instantly "unlikable."

Quote:
even rapists (under a really skilled writer) can get atonement or at least sympathy.

I'd need evidence of this.

Well yeah of course it is! I never said it was a good thing! Still, I'm curious about what makes it SO, SO impossible for the people to forgive that particular attitude.

And honestly I was thinking of the one example: Captain Renault in Casablanca, who's generally a bastard, but certain particular attitudes make him sympathetic. I'm sure there are other examples, though.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Holy shit I never got that far, Spike was a rapist?!


Yes, he was. I forget what season. And James Marsters said he would never, ever play a rapist again because he realized while playing the scene that it was too fucking disturbing to get into a rapist's head.

I don't remember everything about it, but I remember it being hard to watch. I'm pretty sure it was problematic, but I also recall they didn't play it up for sexiness or anything like that. In my memory it was played awkward and horrible.

They also made his redemption arc really long and arduous, which I think was a good choice.

Edit: I should clarify it was only once, with Buffy. He wasn't a repeat offender.

Edit again: I keep thinking of Spike with the fembot arc in Sinfest. Because he had that fembot of Buffy, and that was also creepy. And pathetic.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Samsally wrote:
Holy shit I never got that far, Spike was a rapist?!


Yes, he was. I forget what season. And James Marsters said he would never, ever play a rapist again because he realized while playing the scene that it was too fucking disturbing to get into a rapist's head.

I don't remember everything about it, but I remember it being hard to watch. I'm pretty sure it was problematic, but I also recall they didn't play it up for sexiness or anything like that. In my memory it was played awkward and horrible.

They also made his redemption arc really long and arduous, which I think was a good choice.

Edit: I should clarify it was only once, with Buffy. He wasn't a repeat offender.


On camera, anyway. The whole nasty-past business always seemed to imply to me that those kinds of things were part of it. He made a really rapey threat to Willow in the episode where he kidnapped her to make a love potion because Dru left him.

And it's not just with Spike. It was pretty strongly implied that Angel raped Drusilla as part of his torment of her before he had his soul, and at least one on-camera flashback showed Angel and Darla starting to have sex practically right on top of her. (That might have been in "Angel," I don't recall, but still part of the Buffyverse, still same character and story.)
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...Although now that I think about it, it does make a lot of sense.


I mean, the sole mention of child pornography carries quite a lot of weight. That and rape are really strong subjects, really, which makes them hard to portray accurately. Murder is easy. The victim won't suffer from PTSD episodes and the actual witnesses don't know what it's like.

Answer to my own question: Perhaps we are not ready to see the redemption of such people, I guess. The label is far too powerful. Maybe at this point it's hard to believe that they can change for the better. I might be optimistic, but not everyone is.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Samsally wrote:
Holy shit I never got that far, Spike was a rapist?!


Yes, he was. I forget what season. And James Marsters said he would never, ever play a rapist again because he realized while playing the scene that it was too fucking disturbing to get into a rapist's head.

I don't remember everything about it, but I remember it being hard to watch. I'm pretty sure it was problematic, but I also recall they didn't play it up for sexiness or anything like that. In my memory it was played awkward and horrible.

They also made his redemption arc really long and arduous, which I think was a good choice.

Edit: I should clarify it was only once, with Buffy. He wasn't a repeat offender.


On camera, anyway. The whole nasty-past business always seemed to imply to me that those kinds of things were part of it. He made a really rapey threat to Willow in the episode where he kidnapped her to make a love potion because Dru left him.

And it's not just with Spike. It was pretty strongly implied that Angel raped Drusilla as part of his torment of her before he had his soul, and at least one on-camera flashback showed Angel and Darla starting to have sex practically right on top of her. (That might have been in "Angel," I don't recall, but still part of the Buffyverse, still same character and story.)


Sad I didn't get the implication of repeats at the time, but I did practically watch the whole show in one sitting, so my brain was a bit fried beyond catching details at that point. And Iremember alot f implying biting was like rape as well.

Angel was an ass, so I'm not surprised by that. I don't remember that scene, but I might have missed it.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
...Although now that I think about it, it does make a lot of sense.


I mean, the sole mention of child pornography carries quite a lot of weight. That and rape are really strong subjects, really, which makes them hard to portray accurately. Murder is easy. The victim won't suffer from PTSD episodes and the actual witnesses don't know what it's like.

Answer to my own question: Perhaps we are not ready to see the redemption of such people, I guess. The label is far too powerful. Maybe at this point it's hard to believe that they can change for the better. I might be optimistic, but not everyone is.


I think seeing a rapist redeem themselves would be a good thing, and coud e a good model for ehavior. However, I think nearly all attempts to portray it would result in something that would be interpreted as condoning rape and suggesting we should accept it happening.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
I think seeing a rapist redeem themselves would be a good thing, and coud e a good model for ehavior. However, I think nearly all attempts to portray it would result in something that would be interpreted as condoning rape and suggesting we should accept it happening.

True enough. That's why I said that we aren't ready, rather than it being a bad idea period.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the other thing about pedophilia is that we see children as particular innocent; part of the horror of the abuse is that it first makes use of that innocence, and then destroys it. with rape, you can say, well, at least the victim was an adult and should have had some knowledge of the world...and children are of course weak, even weaker than women. so it's the fact that the crime exploits a weak, innocent victim that really makes it unpardonable.

and it also makes it harder to redeem. a murderer may be taking revenge, a thief might be starving, even a rapist (if you were creating a character you wanted to redeem) might be operating from some sort of passion - but how do you redeem an adult who decided to hurt a child? you might be able to trust a rapist with your money, a murderer with your girlfriend and a thief with your life - but how can you trust someone who would betray a child?
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True enough. Still, does the same apply to the man or woman that possesses child pornography but doesn't exploit or abuse in a direct manner? Still a terrible thing, for sure, but will that person also be completely unreliable or unable to ever appear in a positive light?
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Arkhron



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
(...)and children are of course weak, even weaker than women. so it's the fact that the crime (...)


If that comment don't start a monumental shitstorm there is no justice in this forum :P
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With women it gets weirder, though. Two things I hear in cases of adult women with underage kids are:

1. Of course the boy likes it. Why prosecute?
2. Well, now all those women who complain about equality get to see what happens when they ask for something so stupid: they get prosecuted equally, just like those millions of men unjustly prosecuted for rape.

I recall a comic on Sexy Losers about a boy whose mother was trying to have an incestuous relationship with him while he remained oblivious. The comic was supposed to be very funny. They did a strip showing why they couldn't do the reverse (a father trying to have an incestuous relationship with his daughter.) - because that would be creepy.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh my god Sexy Losers was like, 99% nightmare fuel for me and I sat down and read all of it once and I still regret it deeply.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
True enough. Still, does the same apply to the man or woman that possesses child pornography but doesn't exploit or abuse in a direct manner? Still a terrible thing, for sure, but will that person also be completely unreliable or unable to ever appear in a positive light?


There was actually one episode of "Lie to Me" early on that had an incidental pedophile character who was in the process of self-chemical-castration. He was dismissed as a suspect in whatever the story was, because Lightman said he didn't think that openly self-castrating pedophiles had any reason to lie. So, that show sorta kinda tried to make an incidental pedophile character sympathetic for five minutes, but had to show him voluntarily suffering some kind of torturous process (he was shaking and sweating the whole time he was shown) in order to do so.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Oh my god Sexy Losers was like, 99% nightmare fuel for me and I sat down and read all of it once and I still regret it deeply.


I thought it was neat and funny at the time. I had some fucked up ideas back then, though. Sad
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