welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Explain women only spaces to me.
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Drowemos



Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Explain women only spaces to me. Reply with quote

Ok let's just start out with acknowledging that I am an idiot. I know this line of conversation will not go well and yet I am posting it. I really am not wanting to troll here I just... well I just hope. Hope that someone can give me clarity before it all goes belly up.

So women only spaces...

Isn't this concept of women only spaces sexists? Isn't the whole point of feminism to combat sexism? How could feminist ever tolerate women only spaces. It seems to their violate their core believes. Why do feminist advocate and even set up women only spaces?

Is feminism not about sexual equality? If not what is is?

Are women only spaces not sexual discrimination? How can discriminating who can enter based on their sex not be sexual discrimination?

Now I get there are a lot of thing that are pleasant about women only spaces. Things that people find beneficial. You could even argue they are a general good. But they are still sexual discrimination. Aren't they?

The ACLU fights for the right of the Klan to have yearly parades. Not because it is pleasant of beneficial. They fight for the parades because the Klan has civil liberties and that is what the ACLU defends. I am sure that the leadership of the ACLU finds the parades by the Klan horrific. The only thing more horrific to the ACLU would be not defending someones free speech rights.

I can't get my head around this. Why is the concept of "separate but equal" space for men an women not fundamentally repugnant to anyone calling themselves a feminist?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
TIAB



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 683

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Say you live in a bad neighborhood. You tell various authorities that you don't feel safe going out at night and point to all of the statistics supporting that position. The solution isn't, "Just get used to going out at night. You'll feel safer the more you do it." Sure, the goal is getting to the point where you can, but just doing that ignores the actual problem. There may be a number of resolutions that might be difficult and less than ideal to deal with in the process of resolving the underlying problem, but they are hopefully temporary while the problem is being resolved.

No, that's not a perfect analogy, but I think it makes my point. This isn't what we want the end result to be, but it seems like a reasonable step along the way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6076
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Explain women only spaces to me. Reply with quote

Drowemos wrote:
Isn't this concept of women only spaces sexists? Isn't the whole point of feminism to combat sexism? How could feminist ever tolerate women only spaces. It seems to their violate their core believes. Why do feminist advocate and even set up women only spaces?


if we lived in a gender-neutral society in which "women being victimized by men" is no more likely than "men being victimized by women"...

if we lived in a society where men were no more likely to creep on women, violate their personal space, make passes at them regardless of whether they were interested, and disregard their actual agency in favor of pursuing what they wanted out of them...

and if we lived in a society where nobody's knee-jerk reflex was to blame the victims of these things for doing something to provoke all those staggering lustbeasts they know are wandering around...

then there would be no need for "women only spaces."

but we do not live in such a society.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3748
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And my question to you: what the fuck does it matter to you if there are women only spaces or not? I assume from your line of questioning you are a man, so how have places such as universities having rooms that are designated as women only ever impacted on you ever at all?

Other than for some weird little jealous tingle in your meat brain that says why do they get one where is mine?

It might be best if we all pretended you didn't compare women-only spaces to the fucking KLAN.

Seriously though -- why is it sexist? Do you remember the story, we had a thread about it, about the dude who petitioned to go to the women only gym because it was sexist? Do you know what that proved? That guy was a shitbag, that's what it proved.

To my knowledge there is nothing being supplied in a womens-only room that is not supplied in other rooms. That is: when it is at a public place like a University, it is a safe space for women that like every other common area probably has tea, coffee, power, internet, whatever. So it is the same except you're not allowed in it.

If its a private place like a club or bar, well, friend, suck a dick because no one needs to take your feelings into account.

Look, rambling aside, lets just focus on the main question: how do women only spaces negatively impact your life?
_________________
"Eight hundred pounds of nitro, his boots are thunder as he plays."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Drowemos



Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I am not try to be snaky here. Is the principal it's OK to do something wrong as long as some else is doing something worse? The argument seems to be that it's ok for create women only space because even though they are sexist the sexism of other people is worse and you need women only space to even the score?

I personally do not hold to that philosophy if that is the case.

I agree that women only space have benefit. For example separating women out from men has been shown to have benefits for learn and leadership. Their is much good in it.

But it is still discrimination. You can't take the easy route if it undermines your core principals. You can't force entry into exclusive men clubs and then create exclusive women clubs. I know their are qualitative differences between the two but you can't write laws and build a society on qualitative differences. Society are built on principal applied equally to all, anything else is tyranny.

"...Eye for an eye leaves everybody blind."

"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

You simply can't throw out your principals when it is inconvenient.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6076
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is not actually "throwing away your principles" to support safe spaces for women. in fact, it is perfectly consistent with the principle of supporting gender equality.

why is that? it's because, as a man, the entire world is a safe space for you. you do not have to worry about being creeped on by someone with vague and potentially threatening intentions, disregarding your wishes, making you feel uncomfortable and violated. you do not have to worry about being ogled and hit on and having pictures taken of you and uploaded to the internet without your consent to be fapped at by thousands of creepy people if you go to the gym or the beach or wherever. you do not have to worry about strangers slipping things in your drink. you do not get told that if bad things happen to you and creeps won't leave you alone and you get random catcalls on the street, it must be because you've provoked them somehow with your behavior or your dress.

your entire world is your safe space. why do you begrudge women having little pieces of it carved out where they can be safe, along the way to the goal where the world can be a space space for them too?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Drowemos



Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Look, rambling aside, lets just focus on the main question: how do women only spaces negatively impact your life?


They don't. And I don't care personally.

On the other hand I am really bothered by moral relativism. It is the source of most of the ills of society if you ask me. I am not fighting against women only spaces. But statement like:

"Women only spaces are need to protect them against sexism"

That make the logic centers of my brain cry. And its worrisome because its a type of logic that can be used to justify anything. Hypocrisy used for the greater good today perhaps but once you throw out your principals it's a short trip to short term bad.

It would make me feel better if the feminist line for woman only spaces was; "They may be necessary from time to time but they are fundamentally wrong and represent a failure on our part to find a better, more just solution."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6076
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it would help the process of communication enormously if you would stop assuming that what we have already is an equal and just society

then again perhaps it would also help if you'd just own up to your intentions here, especially since you can't even help yourself but to blame feminists for the problems that create the need for women-only spaces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3572
Location: Relative

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: the spelling errors in your posts are irritating me Reply with quote

Drowemos wrote:
Ok I am not try to be snaky here. Is the principal it's OK to do something wrong as long as some else is doing something worse? The argument seems to be that it's ok for create women only space because even though they are sexist the sexism of other people is worse and you need women only space to even the score?

I personally do not hold to that philosophy if that is the case.

I agree that women only space have benefit. For example separating women out from men has been shown to have benefits for learn and leadership. Their is much good in it.

But it is still discrimination. You can't take the easy route if it undermines your core principals. You can't force entry into exclusive men clubs and then create exclusive women clubs. I know their are qualitative differences between the two but you can't write laws and build a society on qualitative differences. Society are built on principal applied equally to all, anything else is tyranny.

"...Eye for an eye leaves everybody blind."

"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

You simply can't throw out your principals when it is inconvenient.


Tell me, do you know why exactly the "golden rule" is nothing more than a set of guidelines?

It's because no two people are exactly the same.

What one person finds comfortable, another might not.

There are people in this world that are afraid to wander around at night.

Most men don't know of this fear.


You will have great problems trying to convince any person here that that fear is irrational.

And even if you think that fear is irrational, there is no harm in providing a comfortable place for women to reside.

In the end, providing comfort and peace of mind is simply the honorable thing to do.

I really don't see how this isn't common sense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17267
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drowemos wrote:

It would make me feel better if the feminist line for woman only spaces was; "They may be necessary from time to time but they are fundamentally wrong and represent a failure on our part to find a better, more just solution."


what makes you think this isn't the feminist line? the problem is, we are a long way from getting the ultimate perfect solution, when everyone actually is treated equally, and no one has to fear another because of gender differences. so maybe we don't actually say it out in that detail, because we are focused on protecting and helping people in the here and now. doesn't mean that the ultimate goal isn't to create a society where such places are unnecessary. just that right now, we are concentrating on not allowing any more harm.

but as to your underlying moral question: in order to achieve true future equality, it may be necessary to institute some present inequality to reverse the impacts of past inequality. affirmative action is an example of this: in order to give minorities any hope of achieving equal opportunity for things like college admission and access to high-paying jobs which have historically been denied them, we have instituted some practices that are admittedly racially biased, because we hope, by so doing, to reverse the impact of previous biases. the fact that the supreme court is now ruling against them is in some degree due to the fact that these programs have worked, and so race is less clear-cut as a reason for things like lower college admissions.

same thing for women. hence the continued existence of women-only colleges does not really discriminate against men, because men have ample opportunity to go to colleges where they experience no biases when they do things like decide to major in physics or run for class president. similarly, men have access to plenty of exclusive country clubs where they can network, and gyms where they can monopolize the machines, and so forth. women have been historically banned from these places, and are still rare enough or not taken seriously enough that they do not get the same benefit as men in these (mixed-gender) spaces.

and then as other people have discussed, there is the whole problem of women being more subject to sexual assault and harassment, even in public places, which necessitates women-only spaces like train cars and gyms and so forth, so that women can do what they want in safety.

tl:dr; just leveling the playing field in the present doesn't get rid of the effects of a past unlevel field. sometimes you have to build up the low spots.
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3748
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drowemos wrote:
Ok I am not try to be snaky here. Is the principal it's OK to do something wrong as long as some else is doing something worse? The argument seems to be that it's ok for create women only space because even though they are sexist the sexism of other people is worse and you need women only space to even the score?

I personally do not hold to that philosophy if that is the case.

I agree that women only space have benefit. For example separating women out from men has been shown to have benefits for learn and leadership. Their is much good in it.

But it is still discrimination. You can't take the easy route if it undermines your core principals. You can't force entry into exclusive men clubs and then create exclusive women clubs. I know their are qualitative differences between the two but you can't write laws and build a society on qualitative differences. Society are built on principal applied equally to all, anything else is tyranny.

"...Eye for an eye leaves everybody blind."

"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

You simply can't throw out your principals when it is inconvenient.


You skeezy fucking wanker. Battle not with monsters?! First women only spaces are akin to the Klu Klux Klan and now they are a great tyranny upon our society?

I'm just going to grab something real quick from up there:

Quote:
OK to do something wrong as long as some else is doing something worse? The argument seems to be that it's ok for create women only space because even though they are sexist the sexism of other people is worse and you need women only space to even the score?


You are utterly incorrect. It has nothing to do with weird, juvenile revenge by the femocracy to counteract mens clubs. It has to do with making a space A ROOM IN A WORLD FILLED WITH ROOMS where women can be free from harrassment, can sit down and have a cup of coffee and study without being fucking hotdogged by every grinning shitbag that sees them as something to harrass, manhandle, flirt with and tell they'd be much prettier if they smiled.

It also has nothing to do with 'learn and leadership', you fucking berk!

There is no hypocrisy except in your mind, and your mind is broken. Maybe we should go back to the very beginning, and you can explain what you actually think a women-only space is.
_________________
"Eight hundred pounds of nitro, his boots are thunder as he plays."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17267
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's actually a good idea (telling us what you think a woman-only space is).

i missed the "evening the score" thing. in some senses, it is, but not in a vindictive way (which is what that phrase suggests) - it's to help catch up from a past of being held down.
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Drowemos



Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, I have a though here. Is this the problem of confusing women with "a woman" and confusing "promoting sexual equality" with "creating sexual equality".

For example the argument could be made: "why is a woman allowed to play on the men's football team but a man is not allowed to play on the women's football team"

The answer is because a woman can be the physical equal of men but women are generally weaker than men.

In that case when you say Feminist have a core belief of sexual equality. The concept of equality you are talking about the sexual equality of the individual. That a woman can be the equal of any man and should not be restricted on the basis that she is a woman.

While at the same time Feminist are trying to CREATE sexual equality by fighting for certain competitive advantages for women in general. Because women in general have a statistical disadvantage to men.

A woman is strong, but women need help.

It's like handicap spaces. Yes some handicapped individual are distance runners on their prosthetic legs but handicapped people in general can go as far as the legged variety of people.

If that is the case that makes a sense. I would argue that the statistical differences between men and women is a bit more complex than the fact that women possess a orifice that can be raped but the general argument is sound.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17267
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but feminism is not about "statistical differences" and rapeable orifices - it's about equal (legal) rights.

and yeah, things like physical and emotional safety.

wait, all of this is because you can't tell the difference between women as a group and an individual woman?
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Drowemos



Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
that's actually a good idea (telling us what you think a woman-only space is).


I don't know really. I did go to a concert where their was a "Woman's Tent". I assumed it was just a chill out tent of some sort. Don't know and don't care. I really don't have any problem with them. It was the logical inconstancy of calling for both equality and segregation that confused me.

I think I have found the edges of this problem now. Don't have any problem at all with women spaces. Bad logic on the other hand, really annoys me.

@Squidbunny I have not call anyone a name on the form at any point. Even when I strongly disagreed with their statement. I would appreciate it if you afforded me the same respect.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 1 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group