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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Um... Zimmerman is Hispanic... this isn't a race thing and stop making it a race thing.

And if you argue with me, then we have a white president right now as well.


To be fair, there is evidence of one of those two men making a racist statement that night - Martin described Zimmerman as a "creepy-ass cracker." So there's at least a little hint of it being about race.

And Mindslicer, well... given our judicial system, it does feel that a black GZ would have been at least a little more likely of being found guilty of murdering a hispanic TM, ceteris paribus. Also seems extremely likely that it wouldn't have gotten national media attention, comment by the president, and funding/organization of anti-GZ protests by the DoJ's Community Relations Service.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would help if Self-defense laws weren't nearly as nebulous as they are. What is acceptable and what isn't acceptable aren't exactly well defined, and the fact that the definition changes from state to state doesn't help matters, either.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide, sweet Rothide, wrote:
Um... Zimmerman is Hispanic... this isn't a race thing and stop making it a race thing.

And if you argue with me, then we have a white president right now as well.

Since race is a social construct rather than a strictly biological one, that's a questionable assertion. The federal government, of course, has an evolving definition and whether "white hispanic" (contrasted with "black hispanic") is often lumped into a category called "white/hispanic" is literally a question of which federal agency you're talking about (and note "black hispanics" aren't part of that lump).

The point being, Zimmerman is as "white" as any of the rest of us honkies if he self-identified as white (which he apparently didn't), or for the purposes of the trial it mattered how the jury saw him, which was like this:


Mindslicer wrote:
Then since we seem to be in agreement that Zimmerman made a series of stupid, but not illegal decisions that led to Martin's death, I'm not sure why this particular case is relevant to your point. Do you think that, had the races been reversed but all other things remained the same, a black George Zimmerman would have been found guilty of 2nd degree murder of a white Trayvon Martin?

Statistically, it's likely the case would have turned out differently had the victim been white and the perpetrator black, yes. See the chart above for how a black-on-white killing affects the perception of justification in relation to white-on-white and white-on-black.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
It would help if Self-defense laws weren't nearly as nebulous as they are. What is acceptable and what isn't acceptable aren't exactly well defined, and the fact that the definition changes from state to state doesn't help matters, either.

Oddly, apparently Florida's law allows police officers to decide if the shooting was justified or not, and if they do then you don't get arrested at all. If they don't, then you go before a judge who can also rule it justified, and then you don't ever see a jury. It's an odd system, and I'm curious about the constitutionality of it... but in order to challenge it the family of the victim would have to sue the state, I guess.
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
I think we're using those phrases differently. If he was legally compelled to follow their instructions he probably would have been charged with a crime for disobeying. He wasn't charged, hence it's obvious there was likely no legal compulsion.

I'm talking about the morality of the situation with regard to mitigating and aggravating factors of social justice, and as such the added moral responsibility conferred by not listening to advice from a person you called for assistance and who is trained to respond to those situations.


Right but morally being guilty of something isn't the same as legally being guilty.

As Sam points out, it's fucked up but the right choice here was to vote not guilty.

I interpreted your statement as implying that this was a miscarriage of justice, rather than a sad fucking fact about the society where this has to be legal.
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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Then since we seem to be in agreement that Zimmerman made a series of stupid, but not illegal decisions that led to Martin's death, I'm not sure why this particular case is relevant to your point. Do you think that, had the races been reversed but all other things remained the same, a black George Zimmerman would have been found guilty of 2nd degree murder of a white Trayvon Martin?

Statistically, it's likely the case would have turned out differently had the victim been white and the perpetrator black, yes. See the chart above for how a black-on-white killing affects the perception of justification in relation to white-on-white and white-on-black.


I'm not refuting the statistics you posted, I'm asking what you think. When your first response is:

Quote:
Yeah, if you're black and wearing a hoodie in this country you're disposable, even if you're killed by an overzealous wanna-be cop who disobeyed the police and went looking for a confrontation.


It seems you're suggesting, as Snorri said, that this was a miscarriage of justice and that the same jury would have found a black Zimmerman guilty of murdering a white Martin.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
Dogen wrote:
Mindslicer wrote:
Then since we seem to be in agreement that Zimmerman made a series of stupid, but not illegal decisions that led to Martin's death, I'm not sure why this particular case is relevant to your point. Do you think that, had the races been reversed but all other things remained the same, a black George Zimmerman would have been found guilty of 2nd degree murder of a white Trayvon Martin?

Statistically, it's likely the case would have turned out differently had the victim been white and the perpetrator black, yes. See the chart above for how a black-on-white killing affects the perception of justification in relation to white-on-white and white-on-black.


I'm not refuting the statistics you posted, I'm asking what you think. When your first response is:

Quote:
Yeah, if you're black and wearing a hoodie in this country you're disposable, even if you're killed by an overzealous wanna-be cop who disobeyed the police and went looking for a confrontation.


It seems you're suggesting, as Snorri said, that this was a miscarriage of justice and that the same jury would have found a black Zimmerman guilty of murdering a white Martin.


I can't speak for Dogen here but I would say that the opposite case you give is actually the problem. The victim being black seems to be less of a problem than the perpetrator being black.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Dogen wrote:
I think we're using those phrases differently. If he was legally compelled to follow their instructions he probably would have been charged with a crime for disobeying. He wasn't charged, hence it's obvious there was likely no legal compulsion.

I'm talking about the morality of the situation with regard to mitigating and aggravating factors of social justice, and as such the added moral responsibility conferred by not listening to advice from a person you called for assistance and who is trained to respond to those situations.

Right but morally being guilty of something isn't the same as legally being guilty.

... uhh, yeah, that's why I've been drawing the distinction between moral and legal responsibility. In the post you quoted.

Quote:
As Sam points out, it's fucked up but the right choice here was to vote not guilty.

I didn't disagree with this. Because I'm not talking about this (I didn't watch the trial, and thus have no idea if the verdict was warranted or not except by hearsay).

Quote:
I interpreted your statement as implying that this was a miscarriage of justice, rather than a sad fucking fact about the society where this has to be legal.

That's fine, misunderstandings happen. I just don't know why we're still talking about it instead of having one of those, "Oh, haha, I misunderstood you, moving on..." conversations. I'm just repeatedly saying that I wasn't talking about the law, and then people keep repeatedly telling me they thought I was.
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Last edited by Dogen on Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
I'm not refuting the statistics you posted, I'm asking what you think. When your first response is:

Quote:
Yeah, if you're black and wearing a hoodie in this country you're disposable, even if you're killed by an overzealous wanna-be cop who disobeyed the police and went looking for a confrontation.

So you're, what, asking me to predict the jury verdict in a hypothetical crime? Okay: the statistics say it would likely be different. That's what I think. The statistical evidence isn't 100% certain (being statistical), so if you're asking me to tell you something more specific, I can only say there isn't enough data to come to a conclusion about a jury verdict in a crime that hasn't happened between two people that don't exist.

Quote:
It seems you're suggesting, as Snorri said, that this was a miscarriage of justice and that the same jury would have found a black Zimmerman guilty of murdering a white Martin.

Yeah, thanks for being like the 4th person to tell me this. If you're reading along with the group then you already knew this wasn't the case before you made this post. Feel free to post again, telling me what you thought I meant hours after I explained what I really meant. I feel like if we just repeat it three or four more times we'll really uncover something new, like my closet klismaphilia.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Um... Zimmerman is Hispanic... this isn't a race thing and stop making it a race thing.


This is a race thing and will continue to be a race thing and — I will be honest with you — to not recognize this indicates a profound ignorance of what's going on here.
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Mindslicer



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Yeah, thanks for being like the 4th person to tell me this. If you're reading along with the group then you already knew this wasn't the case before you made this post.


Okay, you merely made a direct comparison between this particular case and a racial bias you believe is indicated by the statistics you posted. But if one thinks you mean that this particular case was affected by or a product of said racial bias, that's reading too much into it.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This case probably was influenced by the bias, but that doesn't mean it's the only factor. Sam and CTrees say it was poorly prosecuted. That would be another factor. You see, the statistics aren't people and things, they're probabilities. I can tell you what percentage of police nationwide support concealed carry laws in a recent survey (91%), but I can't tell you whether a particular police officer supports it unless we ask them. Likewise, I can talk about racial biases that are prevalent at various levels of the criminal justice system, but I'm not omniscient so I can't tell you specifically what role they played in a specific case. That's just not how statistics work.

I can also use as an example of the harm of such racial disparity a case in which a black man was killed for doing nothing worse than walking around at night with his hood up because an overzealous cop wannabe decided he must be doing something illegal.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is hard to even really overstate how much the racial disparity makes this a race issue even fundamentally at its core before even you take into account the social response to this event.

A white person killing a black person is 230% more likely to be ruled a justifiable homicide compared to a white person killing a white person.

If anyone wants to claim that this is a matter of the natural criminal inclinations of blacks, good luck to you, poor fools. For everyone else, we are talking about a critically entrenched issue of social disparity which cuts to the root of all our most important systems of justice, and represent in sum a great injustice.
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nevermind what the hell race Zimmerman is. The point is that he wasn't black--and more saliently, Trayvon was, and I don't think either of those are in dispute.

Whatever Zimmerman was he seemed to indeed have something against "young black males" maybe the same amount of thing that made my mom hit the car locks when the car came to a stop near where people were waiting for the bus. Scientific studies have time an again shown that regardless of actual expression, the average white person will "read" a black person as being more hostile and aggressive than they are. Other studies show white people have a lower empathy factor when watching black skin pierced by a needle as opposed to white skin. ETC ETC. None of this is controversial.

Scary Black Man isn't just a TV trope, it's how scores of people automatically see black males and many of them are A) completely fucking unaware that they are doing it at all B) under the impression that their subjective judgement accurately reflects reality.

Zimmerman himself (again, whatever race he happens to be) seems to have had a past history of going paranoid about black males and once even reported a "suspicious black male between the age of 7-9"

Even before you get to discrimination in the system which undervalues the life of black people and indeed other visible minorities who get killed...

Even before you get to that, it is reasonable to say that it is likely none of this would have happened if it wasn't for Zimmerman's racially-charged assumptions and race-based fear of an unarmed teenager .

I literally cannot even believe it when people try to act like this isn't about race. Or that it's only about race because "certain people" are making it about race .

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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
it is hard to even really overstate how much the racial disparity makes this a race issue even fundamentally at its core before even you take into account the social response to this event.

A white person killing a black person is 230% more likely to be ruled a justifiable homicide compared to a white person killing a white person.

If anyone wants to claim that this is a matter of the natural criminal inclinations of blacks, good luck to you, poor fools. For everyone else, we are talking about a critically entrenched issue of social disparity which cuts to the root of all our most important systems of justice, and represent in sum a great injustice.


Call it the cynic in me but you have a breakdown for that by state at all?

Not that i expect it's a shining beacon of equality anywhere in this country but every time some shit like this gets crazy enough to hit the news its always in the same area of the country.
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