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21-Jul-2013: The White Matrix 2
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TerseRiddle



Joined: 27 Jun 2013
Posts: 233
Location: In my head

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
Tekii wrote:
Uuuuugh so conflicted on aboriginal Lady Liberty. Cause yessss, aboriginals included! But war bonnets are worn by men so I'm like uuuurgh, what to feel.


Maybe she's trans. Razz

My guess would be that Tat was trying to replace the crown with something with more Native American influence and that was the only thing he could think of.


Actually war bonnets were usually earned by warriors. When I did research into my ancestry in the Blackfoot tribe, I discovered that sometimes women, although usually widows, would ride into war alongside men. If that's the case, then I don't see why it isn't possible for a native american women to be able to earn enough feathers to make a war bonnet.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 285

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Night Spade wrote:
If you really want to change the world, you need to set off the Human Instrumentality Project, that way there will be no more black or white, only orange!


LCL for everyone! Very Happy
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tricksterson



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 453

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Less bothered by replacing Lincoln (because I'm well aware of his, to put it mildly, mixed views on blacks) than by replacing Lady Liberty. She's not white, she's green!
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Xalca



Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 16
Location: CO

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tricksterson wrote:
She's not white, she's green!


She was originally bronze, the green is just a patina, acquired over time.

The more you know
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3391
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't notice the war bonnet - though in my defense I was very tired. I'm guessing he wanted something equivalent to a crown, and figured a headband was too clíche/stereotypcal.

I am not sure; on the one hand, if Tat knows the history behind war bonnets, this could be meaningful. But since war bonnets are overused in images of native people (especially giant ones like she has), I'm afraid that isn't the case.

If he was just grabbing an image he thinks people will recognize without any though, it is probably problematic. The only other time I recall his drawing native people was when Liberty was freaking out about them and then Sam killed a bunch of them - and they were wearing headbands with single feathers. So his track record (as far as I know) doesn't include the deepest of knowledge.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
I didn't notice the war bonnet - though in my defense I was very tired. I'm guessing he wanted something equivalent to a crown, and figured a headband was too clíche/stereotypcal.

I am not sure; on the one hand, if Tat knows the history behind war bonnets, this could be meaningful. But since war bonnets are overused in images of native people (especially giant ones like she has), I'm afraid that isn't the case.

If he was just grabbing an image he thinks people will recognize without any though, it is probably problematic. The only other time I recall his drawing native people was when Liberty was freaking out about them and then Sam killed a bunch of them - and they were wearing headbands with single feathers. So his track record (as far as I know) doesn't include the deepest of knowledge.


Well, he's been all into growing past old ignorance lately, maybe this will spur some greater involvement and understanding.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect he'll get it, and hopefully he has good feedback from this.
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Tekii



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vector010 wrote:
lostinube wrote:
vector010 wrote:
I find it mildly humorous that the Sunday strip about racial diversity includes a Native American stereotype, and nobody notices at all. Razz


Tekii wrote:
Uuuuugh so conflicted on aboriginal Lady Liberty. Cause yessss, aboriginals included! But war bonnets are worn by men so I'm like uuuurgh, what to feel.


Also, not mentioning does not mean not noticing. I saw it. I chose to comment about Asian Americans because that's a topic I know bit more about.


I wouldn't call complaining about a Native American stereotype with a Native American stereotype exactly noticing. I can understand not commenting because of lack of knowledge on the subject though. And to be fair, there are several hundred Native American tribes, each with their own unique customs and garb which would be difficult to represent to say the least. In the interest of the spirit of the comic though, yay for knowledge!


Completely late on this but what part was the stereotype I was complaining with?
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A decent Sunday strip. Not being American, I hadn't known who Harriet Tubman was until I consulted google. Really, I had always wondered whether Mr. Ishida would move on to racism; for it was once a controversial topic within feminism itself, with some 70s feminists assuming that all women were white and of some particular class.

It's a thorny question whether Marilyn Monroe counts as white. She was a Caucasian icon, sure - but she also converted to Judaism, and Jews have an almost unique status in Western culture. The entire 'a part of but separate' thing, with race, religion and identity being ambiguously combined. I say this being Jewish myself, and occasionally being subjected to some, er, telling assumptions because of it. But I admit that I only hesitate here because of my personal viewpoint, and that most people would consider her white without a second thought.

So, yes, a charming strip. Note that how Mr. Ishida is holding the pen makes it look like he is flipping the bird to the viewer.
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vector010



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tekii wrote:
vector010 wrote:
lostinube wrote:
vector010 wrote:
I find it mildly humorous that the Sunday strip about racial diversity includes a Native American stereotype, and nobody notices at all. Razz


Tekii wrote:
Uuuuugh so conflicted on aboriginal Lady Liberty. Cause yessss, aboriginals included! But war bonnets are worn by men so I'm like uuuurgh, what to feel.


Also, not mentioning does not mean not noticing. I saw it. I chose to comment about Asian Americans because that's a topic I know bit more about.


I wouldn't call complaining about a Native American stereotype with a Native American stereotype exactly noticing. I can understand not commenting because of lack of knowledge on the subject though. And to be fair, there are several hundred Native American tribes, each with their own unique customs and garb which would be difficult to represent to say the least. In the interest of the spirit of the comic though, yay for knowledge!


Completely late on this but what part was the stereotype I was complaining with?


Sorry about that, I was tired and misread what you posted. For some reason my brain read "war bonnet" as "feathered headdress" and yeah. Reading comprehension fail.
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Tekii



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vector010 wrote:
Tekii wrote:
vector010 wrote:
lostinube wrote:
vector010 wrote:
I find it mildly humorous that the Sunday strip about racial diversity includes a Native American stereotype, and nobody notices at all. Razz


Tekii wrote:
Uuuuugh so conflicted on aboriginal Lady Liberty. Cause yessss, aboriginals included! But war bonnets are worn by men so I'm like uuuurgh, what to feel.


Also, not mentioning does not mean not noticing. I saw it. I chose to comment about Asian Americans because that's a topic I know bit more about.


I wouldn't call complaining about a Native American stereotype with a Native American stereotype exactly noticing. I can understand not commenting because of lack of knowledge on the subject though. And to be fair, there are several hundred Native American tribes, each with their own unique customs and garb which would be difficult to represent to say the least. In the interest of the spirit of the comic though, yay for knowledge!


Completely late on this but what part was the stereotype I was complaining with?


Sorry about that, I was tired and misread what you posted. For some reason my brain read "war bonnet" as "feathered headdress" and yeah. Reading comprehension fail.


Okay thank you! I was very confused and thought maybe there was regional lingo difference that might have been going on.
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purplepolkadottedpiranha



Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

merest wrote:
A decent Sunday strip. Not being American, I hadn't known who Harriet Tubman was until I consulted google. Really, I had always wondered whether Mr. Ishida would move on to racism; for it was once a controversial topic within feminism itself, with some 70s feminists assuming that all women were white and of some particular class.

It's a thorny question whether Marilyn Monroe counts as white. She was a Caucasian icon, sure - but she also converted to Judaism, and Jews have an almost unique status in Western culture. The entire 'a part of but separate' thing, with race, religion and identity being ambiguously combined. I say this being Jewish myself, and occasionally being subjected to some, er, telling assumptions because of it. But I admit that I only hesitate here because of my personal viewpoint, and that most people would consider her white without a second thought.

So, yes, a charming strip. Note that how Mr. Ishida is holding the pen makes it look like he is flipping the bird to the viewer.


That is interesting. I had no idea she had converted to Judaism.

Though it does get confusing with the whole it being a race and religion elements it has. Like if I remember correctly you can be born into Judaism and even though maybe later in life you decide you don't want to follow the religion anymore you are still considered Jewish. So maybe because she wasn't born Jewish he treated it solely religion based instead of taking as the race elements since in this comic he was only doing race type issues?

I don't know that's my guess on it feel free to correct me if I got something wrong about anything above. I don't know a whole lot on Jewish people and culture to be honest


Last edited by purplepolkadottedpiranha on Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:24 am; edited 3 times in total
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

purplepolkadottedpiranha wrote:
merest wrote:
A decent Sunday strip. Not being American, I hadn't known who Harriet Tubman was until I consulted google. Really, I had always wondered whether Mr. Ishida would move on to racism; for it was once a controversial topic within feminism itself, with some 70s feminists assuming that all women were white and of some particular class.

It's a thorny question whether Marilyn Monroe counts as white. She was a Caucasian icon, sure - but she also converted to Judaism, and Jews have an almost unique status in Western culture. The entire 'a part of but separate' thing, with race, religion and identity being ambiguously combined. I say this being Jewish myself, and occasionally being subjected to some, er, telling assumptions because of it. But I admit that I only hesitate here because of my personal viewpoint, and that most people would consider her white without a second thought.

So, yes, a charming strip. Note that how Mr. Ishida is holding the pen makes it look like he is flipping the bird to the viewer.


That is interesting. I had no idea she had converted to Judaism.

Though it does have so ethics elements to it. Like if I remember correctly you can be born into Judaism and even though maybe later in life you decide you don't want to follow the religion anymore you are still considered Jewish. So maybe because she wasn't born Jewish he treated it solely religion based instead of taking as the race elements?

I don't know that's my guess on it feel free to correct me if I got something wrong about anything above. I don't know a whole lot on Jewish people and culture to be honest


Of course Marilyn was white, merest, you dodo. Changing religion did not change her race. "White," whatever the unwashed hordes of fundie conservatism would have you think, is not a religion one must adhere to. Adding religious Judaism to a white person does not erase their whiteness.

How Judaism regards lineage, as well as the faith's place on the broad social stage are things worth considering, and there's a lot of cool intersectionality there, but dude, Marilyn was unequivocally white, pre- and post- conversion.
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
purplepolkadottedpiranha wrote:
merest wrote:
A decent Sunday strip. Not being American, I hadn't known who Harriet Tubman was until I consulted google. Really, I had always wondered whether Mr. Ishida would move on to racism; for it was once a controversial topic within feminism itself, with some 70s feminists assuming that all women were white and of some particular class.

It's a thorny question whether Marilyn Monroe counts as white. She was a Caucasian icon, sure - but she also converted to Judaism, and Jews have an almost unique status in Western culture. The entire 'a part of but separate' thing, with race, religion and identity being ambiguously combined. I say this being Jewish myself, and occasionally being subjected to some, er, telling assumptions because of it. But I admit that I only hesitate here because of my personal viewpoint, and that most people would consider her white without a second thought.

So, yes, a charming strip. Note that how Mr. Ishida is holding the pen makes it look like he is flipping the bird to the viewer.


That is interesting. I had no idea she had converted to Judaism.

Though it does have so ethics elements to it. Like if I remember correctly you can be born into Judaism and even though maybe later in life you decide you don't want to follow the religion anymore you are still considered Jewish. So maybe because she wasn't born Jewish he treated it solely religion based instead of taking as the race elements?

I don't know that's my guess on it feel free to correct me if I got something wrong about anything above. I don't know a whole lot on Jewish people and culture to be honest


Neither does merest.

Of course Marilyn was white, merest, you dodo. Changing religion did not change her race. "White," whatever the unwashed hordes of fundie conservatism would have you think, is not a religion.


Being Jewish, I don't know much about Jewish people and culture? Goodness gracious. An audacious way of invalidating someone's life and experiences. But I am not easily offended.

I didn't say that white-ness was a religion. As you say, it isn't. Judaism is harder to pin down because of the strange notion of a 'chosen people', which many cultures have had a lot of trouble with, and have sometimes interpreted in ways that make a hash (almost uniquely) of clean distinctions between race, religion, and cultural identity. You will find different opinions on this subject (among them the one you just voiced), but choosing one of them and saying the others don't exist is ill-advised.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

merest wrote:
Rune wrote:
purplepolkadottedpiranha wrote:
merest wrote:
A decent Sunday strip. Not being American, I hadn't known who Harriet Tubman was until I consulted google. Really, I had always wondered whether Mr. Ishida would move on to racism; for it was once a controversial topic within feminism itself, with some 70s feminists assuming that all women were white and of some particular class.

It's a thorny question whether Marilyn Monroe counts as white. She was a Caucasian icon, sure - but she also converted to Judaism, and Jews have an almost unique status in Western culture. The entire 'a part of but separate' thing, with race, religion and identity being ambiguously combined. I say this being Jewish myself, and occasionally being subjected to some, er, telling assumptions because of it. But I admit that I only hesitate here because of my personal viewpoint, and that most people would consider her white without a second thought.

So, yes, a charming strip. Note that how Mr. Ishida is holding the pen makes it look like he is flipping the bird to the viewer.


That is interesting. I had no idea she had converted to Judaism.

Though it does have so ethics elements to it. Like if I remember correctly you can be born into Judaism and even though maybe later in life you decide you don't want to follow the religion anymore you are still considered Jewish. So maybe because she wasn't born Jewish he treated it solely religion based instead of taking as the race elements?

I don't know that's my guess on it feel free to correct me if I got something wrong about anything above. I don't know a whole lot on Jewish people and culture to be honest


Neither does merest.

Of course Marilyn was white, merest, you dodo. Changing religion did not change her race. "White," whatever the unwashed hordes of fundie conservatism would have you think, is not a religion.


Being Jewish, I don't know much about Jewish people and culture? Goodness gracious. An audacious way of invalidating someone's life and experiences. But I am not easily offended.

I didn't say that white-ness was a religion. As you say, it isn't. Judaism is harder to pin down because of the strange notion of a 'chosen people', which many cultures have had a lot of trouble with, and have sometimes interpreted in ways that make a hash (almost uniquely) of clean distinctions between race, religion, and cultural identity. You will find different opinions on this subject (among them the one you just voiced), but choosing one of them and saying the others don't exist is ill-advised.


That was a joke aimed at your ridiculous claim. I retracted it when I realized it wouldn't read that way. But come on, you're not exactly demonstrating a perspective of value by trying to claim that Marilyn Monroe was a Person of Color because she changed religions.

I'm sure there are all kinds of valuable discussions to be had about lineage and that intersection, and about prejudice against Jews.

But, dude, it does NOT make Marilyn a Person of Color. That means something else entirely. It does not mean that she had the life and experiences of a person of color, and it does not mean that she did not experience white privilege. It could be that she gave up other privilege by converting. But she did not suddenly become a person of color.
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