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Aug. 28: Woman Only
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 1993
Location: Somewhere else.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boing Fwip wrote:
MerchManDan wrote:
Boing Fwip wrote:
Moral of the story: It would be a better world if there were no men. At all. Men are the enemy.

You are so wrong, it's sad. I actually feel sorry for you if you believe that's the point of this strip.


Please explain how I'm wrong? Every girl in the strip is seeking out a "Women Only" area, which is Happy Sunshine Land. Liberty doesn't bother talking to Sam, Fuschia doesn't seek out Criminy, Nique's perpetual bad mood finally lifts immediately when she crosses into the Women Only area. Everyone's happy as soon as there are no men around to ruin their lives. When was the last time any man in this comic was seen as anything but some Patriarchy goon? "Kill all men," "there are no male allies," "why shouldn't I hate (men)?" Instead of telling me I'm wrong, why don't you tell me what the point is? World with men = unhappy women, endless Patriarchal rain. Women's only area = smiles and sunshine. What do you think I'm missing here?

What you're missing is the fact that Men =/= Patriarchy. These characters don't believe the world would be better without men, they believe it would be better without oppressive attitudes and institutions. The Women Only Space provides what the rest of the world does not.
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Boing Fwip



Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:
Boing Fwip wrote:
MerchManDan wrote:
Boing Fwip wrote:
Moral of the story: It would be a better world if there were no men. At all. Men are the enemy.

You are so wrong, it's sad. I actually feel sorry for you if you believe that's the point of this strip.


Please explain how I'm wrong? Every girl in the strip is seeking out a "Women Only" area, which is Happy Sunshine Land. Liberty doesn't bother talking to Sam, Fuschia doesn't seek out Criminy, Nique's perpetual bad mood finally lifts immediately when she crosses into the Women Only area. Everyone's happy as soon as there are no men around to ruin their lives. When was the last time any man in this comic was seen as anything but some Patriarchy goon? "Kill all men," "there are no male allies," "why shouldn't I hate (men)?" Instead of telling me I'm wrong, why don't you tell me what the point is? World with men = unhappy women, endless Patriarchal rain. Women's only area = smiles and sunshine. What do you think I'm missing here?

What you're missing is the fact that Men =/= Patriarchy. These characters don't believe the world would be better without men, they believe it would be better without oppressive attitudes and institutions. The Women Only Space provides what the rest of the world does not.


Show me where Tatsuya has ever distinguished between Men and the Patriarchy. He had a perfect opportunity here (http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4696) but instead merely equated men with oppressors. I, myself, don't think Men = Patriarchy. But Tatsuya never makes the distinction, and in fact leaves at least the impression that the two are equivalent. It's merely criticism of how Tatsuya handles the issue. If the characters really believe what you claim they do, then it should be evident to the reader. But it's not. Rather it's anything but. The only potential allies presented have been shown to be not sincere enough or not informed enough, and therefore not worthy to be counted allies.
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purplepolkadottedpiranha



Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boing Fwip wrote:
MerchManDan wrote:
Boing Fwip wrote:
MerchManDan wrote:
Boing Fwip wrote:
Moral of the story: It would be a better world if there were no men. At all. Men are the enemy.

You are so wrong, it's sad. I actually feel sorry for you if you believe that's the point of this strip.


Please explain how I'm wrong? Every girl in the strip is seeking out a "Women Only" area, which is Happy Sunshine Land. Liberty doesn't bother talking to Sam, Fuschia doesn't seek out Criminy, Nique's perpetual bad mood finally lifts immediately when she crosses into the Women Only area. Everyone's happy as soon as there are no men around to ruin their lives. When was the last time any man in this comic was seen as anything but some Patriarchy goon? "Kill all men," "there are no male allies," "why shouldn't I hate (men)?" Instead of telling me I'm wrong, why don't you tell me what the point is? World with men = unhappy women, endless Patriarchal rain. Women's only area = smiles and sunshine. What do you think I'm missing here?

What you're missing is the fact that Men =/= Patriarchy. These characters don't believe the world would be better without men, they believe it would be better without oppressive attitudes and institutions. The Women Only Space provides what the rest of the world does not.


Show me where Tatsuya has ever distinguished between Men and the Patriarchy. He had a perfect opportunity here (http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4696) but instead merely equated men with oppressors. I, myself, don't think Men = Patriarchy. But Tatsuya never makes the distinction, and in fact leaves at least the impression that the two are equivalent. It's merely criticism of how Tatsuya handles the issue. If the characters really believe what you claim they do, then it should be evident to the reader. But it's not. Rather it's anything but.

I don't think he should have to spell everything out for you.
And in that one I think it would be really odd and kinda out of character for her to be the one that makes that distinction clear for the reader. because as seen here http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4689 it is shown that is a lot more aggressive and throw punches ask questions later type character then the other sisterhood members. So to me it be weird for her to politely say. "No, I just hate misgynist" then to answer in a kind of what to me was sarcastic manner "Why shouldn't I hate my oppressors"
BUT that is just my opinion and how the strips came off to me

and this strip comes to mind as far as drawing the line in between the two http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4618
because it gave slick the choice to choose.
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Boing Fwip



Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

purplepolkadottedpiranha wrote:
Boing Fwip wrote:
MerchManDan wrote:
Boing Fwip wrote:
MerchManDan wrote:
Boing Fwip wrote:
Moral of the story: It would be a better world if there were no men. At all. Men are the enemy.

You are so wrong, it's sad. I actually feel sorry for you if you believe that's the point of this strip.


Please explain how I'm wrong? Every girl in the strip is seeking out a "Women Only" area, which is Happy Sunshine Land. Liberty doesn't bother talking to Sam, Fuschia doesn't seek out Criminy, Nique's perpetual bad mood finally lifts immediately when she crosses into the Women Only area. Everyone's happy as soon as there are no men around to ruin their lives. When was the last time any man in this comic was seen as anything but some Patriarchy goon? "Kill all men," "there are no male allies," "why shouldn't I hate (men)?" Instead of telling me I'm wrong, why don't you tell me what the point is? World with men = unhappy women, endless Patriarchal rain. Women's only area = smiles and sunshine. What do you think I'm missing here?

What you're missing is the fact that Men =/= Patriarchy. These characters don't believe the world would be better without men, they believe it would be better without oppressive attitudes and institutions. The Women Only Space provides what the rest of the world does not.


Show me where Tatsuya has ever distinguished between Men and the Patriarchy. He had a perfect opportunity here (http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4696) but instead merely equated men with oppressors. I, myself, don't think Men = Patriarchy. But Tatsuya never makes the distinction, and in fact leaves at least the impression that the two are equivalent. It's merely criticism of how Tatsuya handles the issue. If the characters really believe what you claim they do, then it should be evident to the reader. But it's not. Rather it's anything but.

I don't think he should have to spell everything out for you.
And in that one I think it would be really odd and kinda out of character for her to be the one that makes that distinction clear for the reader. because as seen here http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4689 it is shown that is a lot more aggressive and throw punches ask questions later type character then the other sisterhood members. So to me it be weird for her to politely say. "No, I just hate misgynist" then to answer in a kind of what to me was sarcastic manner "Why shouldn't I hate my oppressors"
BUT that is just my opinion and how the strips came off to me


Nobody is asking him to spell "everything out." The example I gave was just the most recent opportunity I recall that he had to distinguish between men in general and the Patriarchy. Again, I'm not asking for him to spell it out, but given what he has written and implied, I don't think criticism for failing to demonstrate men can be allies is unwarranted. Especially given the few strips that show attempts to be allies as them being insincere or insufficient. And that doesn't change the subtext of this comic. The women had to get away from men (not distinguished from the Patriarchy) and when they did, everything was better. Hence, men are seen as the problem.
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 1993
Location: Somewhere else.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You ask where Tat has distinguished between Men and the Patriarchy. I can't answer that because I don't immediately recall if he has - at least, not blatantly. OK, so Tat isn't in the habit of spelling out his ideas in big bold letters or gently taking the readers hand & guiding us through his comic. The example you provide makes some assumptions about the readers: That we know what Squig thinks, what Lil' Sis thinks, etc. It assumes we know that Squig does not represent ALL men (well, males) and that Lil' Sis is somewhat more radical in her beliefs than the Sisterhood at large. It assumes we know we have to read between the lines.

Yes, it's annoying to have to think this much about a webcomic (as a longtime reader of Wapsi Square, I know ALL about that). But I believe it's worth the effort; if you don't, then oh well. There are plenty of webcomics out there that don't ask as much from their readers.

Edited to add: "Spelling everything out" is almost exactly what you're asking for.
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Boing Fwip



Joined: 21 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:
You ask where Tat has distinguished between Men and the Patriarchy. I can't answer that because I don't immediately recall if he has - at least, not blatantly. OK, so Tat isn't in the habit of spelling out his ideas in big bold letters or gently taking the readers hand & guiding us through his comic. The example you provide makes some assumptions about the readers: That we know what Squig thinks, what Lil' Sis thinks, etc. It assumes we know that Squig does not represent ALL men (well, males) and that Lil' Sis is somewhat more radical in her beliefs than the Sisterhood at large. It assumes we know we have to read between the lines.

Yes, it's annoying to have to think this much about a webcomic (as a longtime reader of Wapsi Square, I know ALL about that). But I believe it's worth the effort; if you don't, then oh well. There are plenty of webcomics out there that don't ask as much from their readers.


Your attempt at ridicule falls on deaf ears. You are demonstrating precisely why I read it the way I do. You can't recall any instance where he distinguishes between Men and the Patriarchy. But I recall several where the strip is hostile towards men (not distinguished from the Patriarchy) in absolutes. "Kill ALL men," "there are NO male allies," etc. What you're doing isn't "reading between the lines," you're just projecting your view between the lines and claiming it's what Tatsuya is saying. Again, all Tatsuya has to do is create a male ally that the Sisterhood recognizes. Yet almost 2 years into the Sisterhood's anti-Patriarchy story, not one credible ally has emerged. But there have been multiple instances of "radical" man-hating and every male (except gay guy) has been portrayed as a disappointment or just incapable of getting it.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 286

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say Fuchsia is in the women's only zone because D represents the control over her appearance and thoughts. As such, D is a representation of her past oppression.

MerchManDan wrote:
You ask where Tat has distinguished between Men and the Patriarchy. I can't answer that because I don't immediately recall if he has - at least, not blatantly. OK, so Tat isn't in the habit of spelling out his ideas in big bold letters or gently taking the readers hand & guiding us through his comic. T

I think this qualifies:
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Vancore



Joined: 18 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find this situation interesting because now that they are not in the patriarchy/men dominated zone Tat has a chance to expand on their characteristics outside of those influences.
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Criminy has also been shown in a positive light, and I'm pretty sure he's going to be the first male character to be shown to "get it" (it's just taking forever, grrr, there's enough strips about Sam being an asshole Tat!)

Also post-Lethe Lil'E/Lily has never been conflated with the Patriarchy. He's got his own storyline and is a sympathetic character. I'd say that the Devil, who actually DOES pretty much embody the Patriarchy, is maybe going to learn some kind of lesson from Lil'E if Lil'E stands up to him and is like "No, I don't have to be some kind of powerful demon who wants to oppress others, I have friends and I'm happier now than I was before when I was trying to live up to your standards. I'll choose my own path, not follow yours."
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of all 4 cases, the only one that has directly a man tied to it is Liberty. The others deal with anonymous people/things (the internet, an audience, bad memories/trauma). The internet and audiences can have people of all genders and Fyoosh's trauma is from her time working in the Mansion. Devil may be the boss there, but it doesn't look like Devil alone is the sole reason she has nightmares.

Personally I hope Fyoosh talks about it with the others in the Women Only Space. She shouldn't bottle it up inside her.
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boing Fwip wrote:
Your attempt at ridicule falls on deaf ears.

Yet you still point it out. How about that.
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting (and I don't mean this in an ironic sense) that the male characters who are most like allies of the Sisterhood are also the least conventionally heterosexual. Lil E (around 5 years old a lot of the time). Gay Guy. Criminey (very passive, naive, and blushing at the drop of a hat). It would be interesting to see how Mr. Ishida would sympathetically treat male heterosexuality, without it being safely wrapped in blushing naivety or blameless passivity. That he may not be interested in doing so isn't a fault of the comic, however, since it is not contractually obliged to do any such thing.
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

merest wrote:
It's interesting (and I don't mean this in an ironic sense) that the male characters who are most like allies of the Sisterhood are also the least conventionally heterosexual. Lil E (around 5 years old a lot of the time). Gay Guy. Criminey (very passive, naive, and blushing at the drop of a hat). It would be interesting to see how Mr. Ishida would sympathetically treat male heterosexuality, without it being safely wrapped in blushing naivety or blameless passivity. That he may not be interested in doing so isn't a fault of the comic, however, since it is not contractually obliged to do any such thing.


I'm going to argue against your characterization of Criminy. He is shy and blushy (which is adorable), but the dude dug *A PIT TO HELL* to help Fuchsia. ... Thaaattt'''sss not really passive.
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Boing Fwip



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:
Boing Fwip wrote:
Your attempt at ridicule falls on deaf ears.

Yet you still point it out. How about that.


In other words, I'll point it out simply so you realize I did get it, but it won't have any of the desired effect. You so clever Rolling Eyes
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Geareye



Joined: 21 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
merest wrote:
It's interesting (and I don't mean this in an ironic sense) that the male characters who are most like allies of the Sisterhood are also the least conventionally heterosexual. Lil E (around 5 years old a lot of the time). Gay Guy. Criminey (very passive, naive, and blushing at the drop of a hat). It would be interesting to see how Mr. Ishida would sympathetically treat male heterosexuality, without it being safely wrapped in blushing naivety or blameless passivity. That he may not be interested in doing so isn't a fault of the comic, however, since it is not contractually obliged to do any such thing.


I'm going to argue against your characterization of Criminy. He is shy and blushy (which is adorable), but the dude dug *A PIT TO HELL* to help Fuchsia. ... Thaaattt'''sss not really passive.


Agreed, when need calls for it, Criminy has proven he can be one hell of a badass. Passive, is certainly not the word to describe him. Patient, calm and adorkable, but not passive.
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