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Bitcoins! Cargo Cult Economy of the Future!
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Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 4922
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anti-prophet wrote:
So the people who are so concerned about Internet anonymity do not currently use bit coin?


People who are concerned about anonymity are not going to use the internet at all. No matter how you shake it, online purchases leave a data trail and paper trail.

Quote:
Also what is your definition of currency?

Mine is something that is used as a medium of exchange and bitcoin definitely fills that definition.


By this definition, everything is a currency. EVERYTHING.

Quote:
Eventually cash currency will stop being made and people will stop being able to use it as it will become a collectable the same as dead currency is now.


This... I... I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anti-prophet wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
anti-prophet wrote:
Will there always be a demand within society to make anonymous purchases? If you believe the answer is yes than for as long as there is demand someone will create a supply. As far as I can tell in the age of e-currency bitcoin is the best way to fill that demand currently but it's descendants will most likely be the ones to fill the demand when it reaches acceptance.

If you feel that there will not always be a demand to make anonimous purchases, why?


No I feel the people that concerned about their internet anonymity probably wont use the internet, will continue to deal in cash and make up too small a fraction of the population to ever make a commodity unbacked by anything but the hopes and dreams of libertarians qualify as currency.

Meanwhile the rest of the world will continue sharing dickpics and tits or gtfo, completely unconcerned about internet anonymity.


So the people who are so concerned about Internet anonymity do not currently use bit coin?

Eventually cash currency will stop being made and people will stop being able to use it as it will become a collectable the same as dead currency is now.

Also what is your definition of currency?

Mine is something that is used as a medium of exchange and bitcoin definitely fills that definition.


A very broad interpretation of the term currency, the other 2 refer to specifically things like bank notes, paper money, etc.

Also, the assumption of cash currency ceasing to be made is a HUGE leap broski. First and foremost, too much of the planet is too bumfuck poor to implement something like that. You might argue that the USD or british pound or euro might disappear, but I'm unconvinced that we're going to convert to a standard of currency that can't be used when the power goes out. Huge huge wishful thinking jump in thought process there.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

besides which, the overall economic and social trend is towards less anonymity and more freely giving your information to corporations (who then give it to the government). where's this increased demand for an "anonymous currency" like bitcoin going to come from? are you expecting the generation currently growing up on facebook and instagram and twitter to suddenly care more about privacy?

'cuz i doubt that very much. which leaves bitcoin and the like with the set of users it already has: kooks and criminals.
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anti-prophet



Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not expect the complete downfall of physical currency within our lifetime and possibly not even within our children's or grandchildren's life time. I guess I needed to be more specific when talking about how far into the future. But you do raise a good point about wealthier nations being the first to restrict its use. This will leave them with foreign money to complete their hard to trace transactions in. Though is it not possible that over time as fewer nations rely on physical currency that it will become both more stable and convenient to make your purchases in a hard to trace e-currency?

I also noted earlier that the currencies now are not completely anonymous but that they are hard to trace.

Do you think the seedier underbelly of society is going to go away?


Last edited by anti-prophet on Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:32 pm; edited 4 times in total
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anti-prophet



Joined: 19 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
besides which, the overall economic and social trend is towards less anonymity and more freely giving your information to corporations (who then give it to the government). where's this increased demand for an "anonymous currency" like bitcoin going to come from? are you expecting the generation currently growing up on facebook and instagram and twitter to suddenly care more about privacy?

'cuz i doubt that very much. which leaves bitcoin and the like with the set of users it already has: kooks and criminals.


The use of bit coin and other crypto currencies is on the rise, so is the sharing of information. So do you not believe it is possible for someone to use their main traceable currency most of the time but a secondary hard to trace currency when they feel the need?
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"the use of crypto currencies is on the rise," until they reach the point of collapse that bitcoin is rapidly approaching, in which case you're back to the currencies we've already got.

besides which, bitcoin isn't all that anonymous anyway, so once people figure that out then that's another strike against the internet funny money.

you don't appear to really have a point here, except to say that there will always be criminals and thus there will always be bitcoins. so what are we supposed to take away from that? that bitcoin and crypto currencies are inherently criminal? and then you keep saying that they'll be "more accepted" in some vague future. so there's going to be more and more drug dealers and arms dealers and child porn peddlers and human traffickers? and that's a good thing?

what is your point?
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anti-prophet



Joined: 19 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really did not have much of a point beyond that i think it, in some form, will reach acceptance. The criminal thing was just an example of one reason that the demand will always be there not that it is the inly reason. I also already acknowledged that it is not completely anonymous.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9583

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anti-prophet wrote:
I really did not have much of a point beyond that i think it, in some form, will reach acceptance. The criminal thing was just an example of one reason that the demand will always be there not that it is the inly reason. I also already acknowledged that it is not completely anonymous.


That's perfectly fair. Cryptocurrencies designed around anonymity may hold a share of reliable use in the world, because of the same things we have seen Bitcoin be useful for: laundering and the purchase and sale of illicit goods like drugs and child pornography.

Of course, this niche use will come with a series of downsides which mean that you shouldn't use it unless you absolutely have to for legal reasons; the benefit of the anonymity has to circumstantially be of better value than the inherent risk that using the currency will entail.

Just like how, right now, using bitcoin is so profoundly stupid unless you're using it to get around the law.
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anti-prophet



Joined: 19 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
anti-prophet wrote:
I really did not have much of a point beyond that i think it, in some form, will reach acceptance. The criminal thing was just an example of one reason that the demand will always be there not that it is the inly reason. I also already acknowledged that it is not completely anonymous.


That's perfectly fair. Cryptocurrencies designed around anonymity may hold a share of reliable use in the world, because of the same things we have seen Bitcoin be useful for: laundering and the purchase and sale of illicit goods like drugs and child pornography.

Of course, this niche use will come with a series of downsides which mean that you shouldn't use it unless you absolutely have to for legal reasons; the benefit of the anonymity has to circumstantially be of better value than the inherent risk that using the currency will entail.

Just like how, right now, using bitcoin is so profoundly stupid unless you're using it to get around the law.


+1 actually made me laugh

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade


Now I don't think we are going to convince eachother any further so we are going to just have to wait and see. You guys may end up being right, I will admit that, but I do not think so simply because the demand is always going to be there.


Last edited by anti-prophet on Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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anti-prophet



Joined: 19 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now on another note can you imagine how much money the producers of bitcoins and other crypto currencies have made? When first released they sell something that does not yet have any value, accepted, illegal, or other, in exchange for something that right now does have value.

Note: I am referring to the ones who initialy sold the bitcoin not the miners as their profit currently is very hardware dependent.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5344
Location: No.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:

besides which, bitcoin isn't all that anonymous anyway, so once people figure that out then that's another strike against the internet funny money.


The article merely points out that a record of transactions is kept. Bitcoins are traceable between wallets, by design. No one ever said they weren't. I thought this was common knowledge.

It has nothing to do with whether your wallet is in any way traceable back to you -- that has everything to do with what you do with it. Keeping a bitcoin wallet anonymous is pretty much the same as keeping any online account anonymous. even the best of efforts will be foiled once we build quantum computers to crack your encryption *evil hand-rubbing*

besides, bitcoin laundry services exist for a reason
SO THEY CAN TAKE YOUR BITCOINS
MUAHAHAHAHA
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but didn't someone post a link to an article talking about a research group that came up with software that could verify an individual with 95% accuracy solely based up the normally available information (OS version, browser version, etc.) or something like that? It's early and I've only just begun drinking coffee, so maybe my brain is messing with me.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's called browser fingerprinting

just as your ip address identifies your network, your mac address identifies your computer, and my casual writing style on this forum identifies HereticalRants(tm), your browser fingerprint identifies your browser

most of the identifying information is obtained through javascript and other browser plugins, so disable that, first off, and don't install any media plugins that announce themselves in a browser that you want to be anonymous

or you can spoof the information that javascript is giving away (though disabling javascript will improve security in a multitude of other ways) -- it's just stuff like system fonts etc


A good place to start if you're at all curious about this is https://panopticlick.eff.org/


The browser I'm using right now has at least 22 bits of information in its fingerprint, which is associated with my real name by Google (and several other companies that are tracking me), and identifies my browser uniquely (at least among three million other browsers that have been tested by that site) but if I'd never associated my real name with it, this wouldn't particularly matter -- it would still be somewhat anonymous.

My anonymous browser's fingerprint has ~2 bits of identifying information (basically nothing) and is shared with anyone taking the same precautions against browser fingerprinting (they number in the thousands), and any other potentially identifying information is either hidden behind tor or never saved to begin with.

A particularly easy way to blend into the crowd is to use a prepackaged read-only system like https://tails.boum.org/ or http://dee.su/liberte
everyone using these look pretty much identical to the servers


tl;dr: at best that technique can be used to identify your browser, which isn't the same as identifying you unless you have associated your identity with that browser (directly or indirectly), and it can easily be thwarted by not using javascript, flash, or the same browser all of the time.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for luls: http://www.rockethub.com/projects/2382-the-bitcoin-adventure-book

Quote:
I believe in the power of BitCoin to change peoples lives for the better and appreciate any support you can offer this project to help educate the rest of the world.

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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arc Tempest wrote:

Quote:
Also what is your definition of currency?

Mine is something that is used as a medium of exchange and bitcoin definitely fills that definition.


By this definition, everything is a currency. EVERYTHING.


Bollocks, most things aren't used as a medium of exchange. They can be (and in fact the use of commodities as currency is fascinating) but they're generally not used as such when any basic fiat currency is available.

There is no question at all actually about whether or not bitcoins are currency. They are totally currency. That doesn't actually make them useful though since I require more of my currency than just the mere fact that it is. Like security and stability and such.
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