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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrees wrote:
The Remington 870 is one of the two most common pump shotguns in the country (along with the Mossberg 500). It looks like this. "Law-enforcement-style" is absurd.


They could have been referencing one of these, which, while known as the 'law enforcement model', is just a standard 870 with a flashlight mount, +2 mag extension, and a pistol grip stock.

mouse wrote:
wow - i guess since they got all that stuff wrong about the gun and all, nobody really got killed, right?

because 'only' taking a man's chest out - that's nothing.

dude....the point is, he could still buy something that let him take out a mess of people, even though it was illegal for him to buy something _else_ that would have let him take out a mess of people.

do you understand that, whatever the NYTimes got right or wrong about the actual weapons, PEOPLE ARE DEAD?

how does your post change that basic fact? how does your post help us figure out ways to keep that from happening again, and again, and again?


Where exactly did CTrees say that no one died?

Sensationalist reporting at best helps no one and sells a lot of papers, at worst it misinforms readers and starts panics. Being skeptical of said reporting doesn't minimize the accident, it just asks for reporting that isn't shoddily done.
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CTrees



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
Sensationalist reporting at best helps no one and sells a lot of papers, at worst it misinforms readers and starts panics. Being skeptical of said reporting doesn't minimize the accident, it just asks for reporting that isn't shoddily done.


This, exactly. There's also a further problem with sensationalist reporting - if the reporter is obviously wrong about some points, how can you trust that their other points are accurate? It undermines their credibility on everything, if they lack credibility on some things.

mouse wrote:
because 'only' taking a man's chest out - that's nothing.


The article referenced "increased lethality." What he used, apparently, were just normal shells. There are some truly nasty exotic shotgun shells out there, some of which probably shouldn't be legal. They'd have a point, then. As it stands, this is more of the same sensationalism I was complaining about.

Quote:
how does your post change that basic fact? how does your post help us figure out ways to keep that from happening again, and again, and again?


If people are working from erroneous, sensationalized information, they are more likely to jump on actions which won't help stop something like this from happening again. If you want to figure out a solution to prevent future tragedies of this sort, having the populace and the policy makes working from the actual facts, and therefore able to make proper, informed decisions, improves the odds of a positive, meaningful change. Rampant sensationalism, bias, and outright lies cannot help further this goal.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry if i don't group the new york times with sensationalist press; i will grant that their reporters may not be real familiar with guns.

but seriously - you don't think something that can take out a man's chest is pretty lethal ammunition? i don't care if it _is_ regularly used in hunting animals that are as large or larger than the average human - by that very usage, you know you have something that you would expect to do a lot of damage. i'm a little stunned by the suggestion that this is something trivia, just because it is common. it pretty well was an "extreme cone of death" to the people who got hit by it. what do you want ammo do to before you think we should worry about who has it - take out an entire foodcourt with one shell?

and no, fritters, i didn't say CTrees said no one died. i was addressing the fact that he seemed to be dismissing their deaths, because hey - they only got killed with a regular old shotgun using standard buckshot! not some "cone of death" super-police-military style thing! how alarmist to point out that this was a weapon that fired a spread of lead particles, when it was only a _small_ spread of particles!

we've got a guy who (as darq has posted, and is increasingly being reported) apparently had some serious mental problems. virginia was probably congratulating itself because it was keeping AK-15s out of the hands of ....well, out-of-staters, at least. but this man, with his history of out-of-control behavior and probable mental disorders, was still able to buy a weapon of sufficient lethality to kill a bunch of people. I DON'T CARE if it wasn't the worst weapon in the world - it was bad enough.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe we should look at the how he got away with committing multiple felonies without ever being convicted, and managed to slip through mental health checks despite being obviously mentally ill. Both of which would have prevented his firearms purchase in the first place.

Or perhaps why the US has a homicide rate per 100,000 3x that of Canada, despite Canadians also owning guns (as of 1996 approx 22% of households have a gun).
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why he was able to purchase a gun is a critical point. i heard something on the radio this morning about a new bill that will (hopefully) expand availability of mental health care (can't find a citation now, and of course bills change). that would be great in a lot of ways. it is particularly sickening to learn that this man may have been seeking help, but was apparently unable to get it.

why we have way more homicides is also a question - although we do seem to have a lot more guns (according to this, 31.7% of US households had a gun in 2001, with 10 states having ownership rates of over 50%)
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
why he was able to purchase a gun is a critical point. i heard something on the radio this morning about a new bill that will (hopefully) expand availability of mental health care (can't find a citation now, and of course bills change). that would be great in a lot of ways. it is particularly sickening to learn that this man may have been seeking help, but was apparently unable to get it.

why we have way more homicides is also a question - although we do seem to have a lot more guns (according to this, 31.7% of US households had a gun in 2001, with 10 states having ownership rates of over 50%)


He was able to purchase a gun because a culture where anything that makes buying a gun inconvenient is viciously fought against by a particularly powerful lobby, and as a result it's easy for people who shouldn't have guns, to have them.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
mouse wrote:
why he was able to purchase a gun is a critical point. i heard something on the radio this morning about a new bill that will (hopefully) expand availability of mental health care (can't find a citation now, and of course bills change). that would be great in a lot of ways. it is particularly sickening to learn that this man may have been seeking help, but was apparently unable to get it.

why we have way more homicides is also a question - although we do seem to have a lot more guns (according to this, 31.7% of US households had a gun in 2001, with 10 states having ownership rates of over 50%)


He was able to purchase a gun because a culture where anything that makes buying a gun inconvenient is viciously fought against by a particularly powerful lobby, and as a result it's easy for people who shouldn't have guns, to have them.

Like blind people? Wink

Oh, and "the next time" has been going on for over a century . . . can't find the article, but basically there was an analysis of mass murders and basically they've been going on for a while, actually going down in the last decade. As was also said, Canadians also have a lot of guns.

I blame our shitty healthcare and how we treat people with mental problems. Why the hell dint' the Navy investigate the report by RI police that this guy was batshit loco i.e. hearing voices?
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
mouse wrote:
why he was able to purchase a gun is a critical point. i heard something on the radio this morning about a new bill that will (hopefully) expand availability of mental health care (can't find a citation now, and of course bills change). that would be great in a lot of ways. it is particularly sickening to learn that this man may have been seeking help, but was apparently unable to get it.

why we have way more homicides is also a question - although we do seem to have a lot more guns (according to this, 31.7% of US households had a gun in 2001, with 10 states having ownership rates of over 50%)


He was able to purchase a gun because a culture where anything that makes buying a gun inconvenient is viciously fought against by a particularly powerful lobby, and as a result it's easy for people who shouldn't have guns, to have them.

Like blind people? Wink


Like Kindergardeners
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh found something I've read before, basically, gun laws have little to no effect one way or the other, in other words there's something else causing this other than just access to guns (lots of links in the article, some to scholarly papers):

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201207/mass-murders-are-the-rise

Quote:
There are many types of murder including single death, serial and mass. Single death homicides are, as the name implies, a one time event. Serial murder is one victim at a time repeated over and over, with a separation between the murders, described as separate occasions with a cooling-off period in between.

The FBI defines mass murder as “Four or more murders occurring during the same incident, with no distinctive time period between the murders. These events typically involve a single location, where the killer murdered a number of victims in an ongoing incident." The Colorado shooting by James Holmes was a classic mass murder.

According to the 2010 FBI crime data, since 1980, single victim killings have dropped by more than 40 percent. While that's very good news, there's a new sobering trend: Mass murders are on the rise. This New York Times article researched the frequency of mass murders. It found during the 20th century there were about one to two mass murders per decade until 1980. Then for no apparent reason they spiked, with nine during the 1980s and 11 in the 1990s. Since the year 2000 there have been at least 26, including the massacre in Aurora, Colorado.

There are common motives in single victim murders. For male murderers these includes revenge, power, money and rage. For the female killer, love is usually the motive, whether it involves a child, boyfriend, husband, or an ex. For a single death, the murder is typically commited by someone who knows the victim. For the serial killer, the majority of victims are strangers. Also, the serial killer's motives, which are for multiple reasons, evolve throughout the series of crimes and often relate to a thrill (sexual or otherwise). This is similar to the thrill of the hunt and involves scouting for a victim, planning the attack, the stalk and eventually the killing.

The mass murder motive on the other hand is very different. While they have their own perceived reasons for killing these rarely make logical sense. As for demographics, the mass murderer is typically a white male, a loner, has a college degree or some college, from a relatively stable background and from an upper-middle to middle class family. They often aspire to more than they can handle, then form a hatred and blame others if they fail. Also, they are much more likely to suffer from a mental illness, specifically some type of psychosis.

The number one predictor of violence by far is alcohol and/or drug abuse. Severe mental illness in and of itself was not a predictor. A 1988 study in the Archives of General Psychiatry found that patients discharged from psychiatric facilities who did not abuse alcohol or illegal drugs had a rate of violence no different than that of their neighbors in the community.

However, the study, Violence and Severe Mental Illness: The Effects of Substance Abuse and Nonadherence to Medication, found that when when a mentally ill individual was not medicated and abused either alcohol or drugs, there was a significant increase in serious and violent acts. So clearly, early psychiatric assessments, medication treatment and preventing substance abuse, will go a long way to preventing violence in general.

As for gun control, the studies are all over the map. From anecdotal reports to definitive studies, from the NRA to the Brady Campaign, each side uses mass murder to further their cause. I won’t bother to give examples of the numerous reports, studies and opinions. However, the gun laws are relatively unchanged over the last few decades. Over this time period, some states have stricter gun laws while others have become more relaxed. Regardless of how you feel about gun control in general, there is no correlation between gun control strictness and mass murder. For more see: Gun Control or Carry Permits Won't Stop Mass Murder.

So, what is fueling this spike in mass murder? What is different today versus 50 years ago that can explain 26 mass murders from 2000 to 2012, as opposed to one or two per decade from 1900 to 1980? First, there is no study I’m aware of that looks at this specifically. There are studies that look at violence and media exposure to violence, in particular The Role of Media Violence in Violent Behavior, which concludes that “Media violence poses a threat to public health inasmuch as it leads to an increase in real-world violence and aggression.” This is looking primarily at self reports and laboratory results with respect to the potential for aggression, which doesn’t necessarily translate into the real world. And again, this is a tough argument to accept in general with real world violence on the decline in the face of ever more violent TV, movies, song lyrics, internet and video games.


So, is there anything we can conclude from all of this? One question that needs to be addressed is whether the virtual violence that predominates our culture, while not affecting the general population, is affecting a small subset of younger individuals with a mental illness, who are not medicated or involved in any sort of treatment. Are they at a higher risk for becoming mass murderers? If so what can be done?

The first thing not to do, is to jump to a conclusion based on politics, a knee jerk reaction, a pet theory or your views about guns and/or gun control. The only logical conclusion at this point is that the single most important preventative measure is the early recognition and treatment of severe mental illness in general, and psychosis in particular. That coupled with the importance of keeping a psychiatric patient off alcohol and drugs is all we have until further research is completed.

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Mindslicer



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Oh, and "the next time" has been going on for over a century . . . can't find the article, but basically there was an analysis of mass murders and basically they've been going on for a while, actually going down in the last decade. As was also said, Canadians also have a lot of guns.


http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/18/nation/la-na-nn-mass-shootings-common-20121218

And a more recent one.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/09/17/navy-yard-aaron-alexis-mass-shooting-column/2827015/
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow - this new pope may shake a few things up.

Quote:
Pope Francis, in the first extensive interview of his six-month-old papacy, said that the Roman Catholic Church had grown “obsessed” with preaching about abortion, gay marriage and contraception, and that he has chosen not to speak of those issues despite recriminations from some critics.

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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a lighter note, in the world of stupid corporate decisions:

http://gma.yahoo.com/coca-cola-apologizes-offensive-bottle-cap-191206765--abc-news-lifestyle.html



Quote:
Representatives for Coca-Cola have since stated that the language inside of the cap was the product of a competition pairing one random English word with a second random French word. In French, "retard" means "late" or "delayed." The word's English connotation was missed during the review process, said a spokesperson.

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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

39 dead in Kenya mall attack; hostages still held


Quote:
NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) — Terrified shoppers huddled in back hallways and prayed they would not be found by the Islamic extremist gunmen lobbing grenades and firing assault rifles inside Nairobi's top mall Saturday. When the coast was thought to be clear, crying mothers clutching small children and blood-splattered men sprinted out of the four-story mall.

At least 39 people were killed and more than 150 wounded in the assault, Kenya's president announced on national TV, while disclosing that his close family members were among the dead.

Foreigners were among the casualties. France's president said that two French women were killed, and there were reports of American citizens injured, but the U.S. State Department said it had no further details.

Early Sunday morning, 12 hours after the attack began, gunmen remained holed up inside the mall with an unknown number of hostages. President Uhuru Kenyatta called the security operation under way "delicate" and said a top priority was to safeguard hostages.

As the attack unfolded shortly after noon Saturday, the al-Qaida-linked gunmen asked the victims they had cornered if they were Muslim: If the answer was yes, several witnesses said, those people were free to go. The non-Muslims were not.

Somalia's Islamic extremist group al-Shabab claimed responsibility and said the attack was retribution for Kenyan forces' 2011 push into Somalia. The rebels threatened more attacks.

Al-Shabab said on its Twitter feed that Kenyan security officials were trying to open negotiations. "There will be no negotiations whatsoever," al-Shabab tweeted.


So is the attack in Kenya, initially at 20 , now up to 39, having anything to do with their President and VP being tried for war crimes?

http://news.yahoo.com/39-dead-kenya-mall-attack-hostages-still-held-212623649.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24028714
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
39 dead in Kenya mall attack; hostages still held


Quote:
NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) — Terrified shoppers huddled in back hallways and prayed they would not be found by the Islamic extremist gunmen lobbing grenades and firing assault rifles inside Nairobi's top mall Saturday. When the coast was thought to be clear, crying mothers clutching small children and blood-splattered men sprinted out of the four-story mall.

At least 39 people were killed and more than 150 wounded in the assault, Kenya's president announced on national TV, while disclosing that his close family members were among the dead.

Foreigners were among the casualties. France's president said that two French women were killed, and there were reports of American citizens injured, but the U.S. State Department said it had no further details.

Early Sunday morning, 12 hours after the attack began, gunmen remained holed up inside the mall with an unknown number of hostages. President Uhuru Kenyatta called the security operation under way "delicate" and said a top priority was to safeguard hostages.

As the attack unfolded shortly after noon Saturday, the al-Qaida-linked gunmen asked the victims they had cornered if they were Muslim: If the answer was yes, several witnesses said, those people were free to go. The non-Muslims were not.

Somalia's Islamic extremist group al-Shabab claimed responsibility and said the attack was retribution for Kenyan forces' 2011 push into Somalia. The rebels threatened more attacks.

Al-Shabab said on its Twitter feed that Kenyan security officials were trying to open negotiations. "There will be no negotiations whatsoever," al-Shabab tweeted.


So is the attack in Kenya, initially at 20 , now up to 39, having anything to do with their President and VP being tried for war crimes?

http://news.yahoo.com/39-dead-kenya-mall-attack-hostages-still-held-212623649.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24028714


Apparently 2 Canadians died in the attack, one of which was a diplomat from the Canadian embassy.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Prime+Minister+Stephen+Harper+condemns+attack+that+left/8942891/story.html
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/20/russian-anti-gay-propaganda-film_n_3962843.html

Quote:
A disturbing new Russian anti-gay propaganda film which suggests that many children raised by same-sex couples "were needed by their adoptive parents for sex" is making the blogosphere rounds.

Allegedly produced by a group called "Healthy Young Generation -- Healthy Russia," the video also claims that gay people live 20-30 fewer years than "normal people," 60 percent of children raised by same-sex couples struggle with their sexual identity, and the likelihood of contracting HIV from a gay person is 4,500 times more likely than a "normal person."


Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGCkhcwGres

Fuck you, Russia.
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