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2013-09-06: Peak Dudebro
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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Location: im probably asleep right now

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


A better example of their height difference.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3421
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fritterdonut, do you think that people who have fluid sexuality choose to have fluid sexuality? As in, they decide "Hey, I don't want to just settle down to one, I'm going to take this nebulous thing because I like it best."

When you use the word 'choice' you state outright that people choose their sexuality. And also, if you are going to talk about a small group of people to whom you think what you said solely applies, you need to say that outright. When most people talk about how sexuality is a choice, they are talking about how queer people have chosen to be queer. Without any other information, that is the context your words are going to be taken in.

Also, regardless of people who have fluid sexuality, talking about people choosing to stick with being cisgendered/heterosexual or going somewhere else is unfortunately the same territory as saying that bisexual people are just unsure of themselves while they wait to make a decision.

There are many reasons why these distinctions are important. 'Choice' is used when advocating for anti-queer laws. It is used as justification for re-education type 'therapies.' It is used by a lot of people while interacting with queers, be they parents with queer children or straight men approaching lesbians for educational purposes).

While I recognize that you were probably trying to say something which was not offensive (which I probably agree with), and you are probably aware of homophobia/transphobia to some extent, I thought this might be useful for you.
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Flotsam



Joined: 10 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the "chosen/not chosen" debate really important in this regard?

I mean, those who want to "cure" people from homosexuality can indeed take the "homosexuality is chosen, therefore I can help you choose the right way" approach, but to them the "homosexuality is not chosen, and therefore can be treated as an illness". In one approach, non-heterosexuals made bad choices, in the other, they suffer some form of ailment. For the "sexual therapists", both approaches float their boat and justify treatment.

Not sure if there can be a simple, dumbed-down answer to the question of conscious control over our sexual orientation. Some of the gays I know are equally ambivalent about that. Some say they had no choice in the matter, some say their sexual orientation was, at some point, a conscious choice. Heterosexuality doesn't seem better understood: where does individual choice begins, where do social, psychological or biological drives end?
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10388
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flotsam wrote:
Is the "chosen/not chosen" debate really important in this regard?

I mean, those who want to "cure" people from homosexuality can indeed take the "homosexuality is chosen, therefore I can help you choose the right way" approach, but to them the "homosexuality is not chosen, and therefore can be treated as an illness". In one approach, non-heterosexuals made bad choices, in the other, they suffer some form of ailment. For the "sexual therapists", both approaches float their boat and justify treatment.

Not sure if there can be a simple, dumbed-down answer to the question of conscious control over our sexual orientation. Some of the gays I know are equally ambivalent about that. Some say they had no choice in the matter, some say their sexual orientation was, at some point, a conscious choice. Heterosexuality doesn't seem better understood: where does individual choice begins, where do social, psychological or biological drives end?

Way to support eugenics, good on ya.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3421
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fritterdonut asked if people were taking issue with his terminology, or if they thought sexuality was immutable and fixed. His words implied 'choice,' which is why I offered an explanation of how his terms were connected to the idea that "Queer people choose to be queer" and how this idea is still used to justify things like reparative therapy. Because Fritterdonut appears not to support that idea, and asked about how he was coming off to other people, I decided to talk about the subject.

A concept by itself can be irrational and not worth debating on its own, but if the people who care about it are being destructive, then sometimes that subject has to be talked about.

That sad, since I didn't intend to have a debate about 'choice,' I'm not participating if you still want to babble about that. Those discussions are always annoying and pointless.

Do you have any other concerns, Flotsam?
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