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2013-09-22: Garden of Eden
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Ukulele Ike



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 18
Location: Brooklyn

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lilith was the first woman, created as an equal to man. Since that's clearly an affront to the natural world (heh), she was spirited away and replaced by Eve, created out of Adam. Adam's rib.
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Flotsam



Joined: 10 Sep 2013
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ukulele Ike wrote:
Lilith was the first woman, created as an equal to man. Since that's clearly an affront to the natural world (heh), she was spirited away and replaced by Eve, created out of Adam. Adam's rib.


Hmmm... If she was the original woman, designed and created to be man's equal, how could this be an affront to the "natural world" exactly?
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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not quite spirited away. In fact, she never Fell, for she never ate the apple, nor was expelled from the Garden. Hence, unlike Adam and Eve, she could technically re-enter the Garden. Of course, she isn't 'canon', so to speak, for despite quite old references to her as a demoness, she only gets an actual story, and assignation as Adam's first wife, in the early middle ages. I suspect that Mr. Ishida isn't being faithful to any given text or account of Lilith, but is pulling in material from the Persephone story as well. A hodgepodge. It feels rather weak to me, for all that I like the discrete bits of storytelling, like today's strip. But I might be wrong about the whole thing.
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SA_Penguin wrote:
If this is truly Eden, is that meant to be.. Eve?

Where's the snake?

Come to that... where's the innocent nudity?
[God: Who told you thou wast naked?]


This is a good point. I wonder if Tat had a reason for clothing them.

Geareye wrote:
AngelLilly wrote:
She's Lilith guys.


Yep. I think Lilith was Adam's first wife but 'she refused to lay under him' or something similar...and apparently left him for Big D...which kinda makes sense...I mean no matter how hot Adam was, I sincerely doubt he could beat that.


I think this strip pretty much confirms that she's either Lillith or Eve. But actually... she turned some guys to stone that one time... Maybe she's supposed to be the embodiment of several important goddesses. It would fit with the feminism theme, since goddesses tend to play second fiddle to gods, even though they should be equal, power-wise.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1055

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maynar wrote:
So-o, you're saying he developed said hooves after being conflated with pagan fertility gods? Not fully formed out of the box?

Please tell me more of your theory. I suspect he had hooves from the moment God cast him out of heaven. Not that I'm big on religiosity, but this seems a quirky little idea. Smile


lostinube wrote:
Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but...

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1327/why-is-satan-often-shown-as-having-goatlike-features


My point was a semi-sarcastic quip that he doesn't actually have hooves at all. Because, yes, all that goat-hooves stuff comes from a completely different religious tradition. It took hold, as many such appropriated things have. One could certainly argue from there that the appropriation became as real a part of the devil as anything else, especially because there is a long history using it. However, unless Tat is subscribing to some kind of belief-makes-the-god universe, though, it looks like at least some of those folk beliefs have no bearing there. (Especially since the myth is that the part of his body the devil can't transform are his goat feet.)
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enchantedsleeper



Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 202
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always held with the theory that this is Lilith (and wasn't it in the tags or something?). But in that case, what is the significance of the forbidden fruit for her? If she never Fell, why do we still see her being tempted in the same way Eve was?
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Pixi-san



Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reminds me of a saying.

"God is Love. But the Devil does that thing with his tongue."

Yes, that is Lilith. It will interesting to see Tats take on these archetypes.
Some say it was Lilith who seduced Eve, wifey 2.0. Out of revenge at being replaced or to liberate her? I want to see where this goes.
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lostinube



Joined: 08 Apr 2013
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Maynar wrote:
So-o, you're saying he developed said hooves after being conflated with pagan fertility gods? Not fully formed out of the box?

Please tell me more of your theory. I suspect he had hooves from the moment God cast him out of heaven. Not that I'm big on religiosity, but this seems a quirky little idea. Smile


lostinube wrote:
Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but...

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1327/why-is-satan-often-shown-as-having-goatlike-features


My point was a semi-sarcastic quip that he doesn't actually have hooves at all. Because, yes, all that goat-hooves stuff comes from a completely different religious tradition. It took hold, as many such appropriated things have. One could certainly argue from there that the appropriation became as real a part of the devil as anything else, especially because there is a long history using it. However, unless Tat is subscribing to some kind of belief-makes-the-god universe, though, it looks like at least some of those folk beliefs have no bearing there. (Especially since the myth is that the part of his body the devil can't transform are his goat feet.)


Oops. My comment was meant for Maynar, not you. Should have quoted.
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Maynar



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Appreciated, lostinube. Thanks for that.
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ukulele Ike wrote:
Lilith was the first woman, created as an equal to man. Since that's clearly an affront to the natural world (heh), she was spirited away and replaced by Eve, created out of Adam. Adam's rib.
There's a theory that the bone taken from Adam was actually from his penis*. This is based on how humans are one of the few mammalian species that doesn't have such a bone, and the "seam" that appears to run along the underside of the penis & scrotum.


*it's great how these threads can be tied together
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1055

PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I much prefer the interpretation that Adam and Eve were first created as something of a single androgynous being, and that "rib" is a mistranslated that could better be read as "from his side." As in, from Adam's perspective, Eve was taken from his side, so that each could be a separate independent being. To me, that reads as feeding into the same moral narrative as the Fall itself, the design of mortality, etc. (Personally, I also see Eve's eating of the apple as a good and necessary, if difficult choice that she's a hero for making so that all mankind could be born.)

Not that I actually take any of it literally, but all the different theologies around the story are fascinating, though most of them are infuriating.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody taught me the story of Adam and Eve. It was the first story in an 'easy reader' bible that was foisted onto me by a friend concerned for my soul after I had told her I really liked the Chronicles of Narnia. She told me all about the Christian themes in the Narnia books and encouraged me to learn about Christianity with that in mind.

I read it when I was alone in my room and by the end I couldn't see past my tears.

I was probably 12 years old. I knew that most people didn't take it literally so I didn't either. I just remember thinking, "This story just flat out says everything is Eve's fault. If I'm a Daughter of Eve, this story is telling me I'll never be good enough. I'm not even a complete person, just a part of one." I cried about everything as a kid, but this stuck out as something pretty important. I never could shake the message I read in that story and I've always kind of loathed the tale of Adam and Eve ever since.

(God I've told so many stories about my brushes with religion on this forum, I don't even remember if this one's been told before.)
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Nobody taught me the story of Adam and Eve. It was the first story in an 'easy reader' bible that was foisted onto me by a friend concerned for my soul after I had told her I really liked the Chronicles of Narnia. She told me all about the Christian themes in the Narnia books and encouraged me to learn about Christianity with that in mind.

I read it when I was alone in my room and by the end I couldn't see past my tears.

I was probably 12 years old. I knew that most people didn't take it literally so I didn't either. I just remember thinking, "This story just flat out says everything is Eve's fault. If I'm a Daughter of Eve, this story is telling me I'll never be good enough. I'm not even a complete person, just a part of one." I cried about everything as a kid, but this stuck out as something pretty important. I never could shake the message I read in that story and I've always kind of loathed the tale of Adam and Eve ever since.

(God I've told so many stories about my brushes with religion on this forum, I don't even remember if this one's been told before.)


That's a powerful story. I'm glad you shared it, and I agree with you 100%. The common interpretation of it is awful and infuriating to the max.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enchantedsleeper wrote:
I've always held with the theory that this is Lilith (and wasn't it in the tags or something?). But in that case, what is the significance of the forbidden fruit for her? If she never Fell, why do we still see her being tempted in the same way Eve was?


well, if she was never tempted, there is no significance in her not falling. if you are never offered something, you get no credit for refusing it.

and samsally, that is a powerful story. it's the sort of story that might wake up a few men, who never really thought of what impact the biblical portrayal of eve might have on women.

(i'm also in awe of your perception at that age. i was probably still fixated on getting all the animals into noah's ark.)
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always hated the story of Adam and Eve. It feeds into the idea that women aren't individuals and must share the evils done by other women.
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