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2013-09-28: Strike 2
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3150
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Panel 3 might be why Tat has been practicing those new eyes.

And how do we personally know she doesn't need money? When Blue started working for Big D, she applied for the job because she was unemployed and bills were piling up. Li'l E used to pop into McEvil's (or whatever the place is) to get a job when he wanted to buy something. There have been arcs where people owe Big D money, or he is offering them checks, or they are asking him for money.

I doubt Squig could hold a job, but he might get some money another way. Like maybe he is on disability and all this time the pot was really for medicinal reasons. (Not saying it's likely, just that it could be possible.)

Both Nique and Slick appear to be making money from their poetry shows. Slick just appears to make far less money than Nique, and doesn't seem to be anything but a wannabe celebrity.

The fact that there is so much commerce and advertising in Sinfestland implies that there is money changing hands, so there has to be some way that people get the money in the first place. Regardless, since we don't know Abby's personal situation, we don't know what she needs the job for.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2642
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 2013-09-28: Strike 2 Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:


Kinda like in Qatar: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars-world-cup-slaves

FIFA really should pick a new site for the world cup.


Fuck Qatar. When I heard it in the news I was so upset. Sadly I think FIFA can't repick, they probably signed a contract or something equally binding.
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redrose



Joined: 08 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diagram12345 wrote:
She may not be replaceable on a personal level, but the function she performs at her job can certainly be filled by many other people. It's sweet that 'nique is comforting her, but her role as a friend is irrelevant to how replaceable she is in her job. And besides, since none of the main characters in strip seem to have jobs, she probably doesn't need one either.

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merest



Joined: 15 May 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absinthe is something of a Mary-Sue, for which reason I dislike her. Abstractly, of course, this situation is sad.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay, i'll bite. how is absinthe a mary sue?
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

referring to a character as a mary sue is a bullshit criticism of a character - not only because the term is kind of sexist - but because the definition of the term is incredibly subjective and it's meaning depends on the individual. two different people will have two totally different definitions of the word and it is not valid or stable criticism of a character's failing. to limit your opinion to just "the character is a mary sue" you are forfeiting your credibility as a critic. if you want to criticize a character or explain why you don't like them, there are so many better ways to do it.

"this character has too little flaws""this character does not have enough characterization""the character is bland""has no personality traits""is not balanced enough""the character has too much focus""the character overshadows the others" or "i am not fond of this or that trait in the character""i do not like the amount of focus on this character""i do not like the way other characters react to this character" and so on.

what about absinthe leads you to believe that she is a mary sue? and why? why simplify your argument by just casually referring to her as a mary sue instead of holding some sort of weight to your opinion?
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Random Wanderer



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

merest wrote:
Absinthe is something of a Mary-Sue, for which reason I dislike her.

You seem to be using the "internet" definition of Mary Sue, which is "any character that I don't like, for any reason," because she doesn't seem to fit any of the standard Mary Sue definitions. She hasn't taken over the story: in fact, we don't really see her very often. She hasn't proven to be more skillful than pre-existing characters: in fact, she's not really all that competent at her own job. She hasn't become a love interest to a main character, or unnaturally forced her way into the plot, or naturally gotten the entire cast falling at her feet to worship her, or any other Mary Sueish behaviors.

She's a moe character, in that readers like her, sympathize with her, and want to help her. If that's what bothers you, then that's your taste, sure. But that's a very different thing from being a Mary Sue.

EDIT: Damn, ninja'd twice. I'll stand by it anyway.
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Geareye



Joined: 21 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

merest wrote:
Absinthe is something of a Mary-Sue, for which reason I dislike her. Abstractly, of course, this situation is sad.


Please, do elaborate, I am interested. I mean, if you wanted to find a Mary Sue in sinfest, you might have been able to find some arguments for some other character, but Absinthe? Seriously?
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
the term is kind of sexist


That link is awesome. I will be bookmarking.
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Timpie



Joined: 28 Jul 2013
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Location: Mainland Europe - Belgium

PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Random Wanderer wrote:
You seem to be using the "internet" definition of Mary Sue, which is "any character that I don't like, for any reason," because she doesn't seem to fit any of the standard Mary Sue definitions. She hasn't taken over the story: in fact, we don't really see her very often. She hasn't proven to be more skillful than pre-existing characters: in fact, she's not really all that competent at her own job. She hasn't become a love interest to a main character, or unnaturally forced her way into the plot, or naturally gotten the entire cast falling at her feet to worship her, or any other Mary Sueish behaviors.

She's a moe character, in that readers like her, sympathize with her, and want to help her. If that's what bothers you, then that's your taste, sure. But that's a very different thing from being a Mary Sue.

EDIT: Damn, ninja'd twice. I'll stand by it anyway.


Playing the devil's advocate here, but she does have some qualities that do set her into Mary Sueish territory. She's bumbling and incompetent, and doesn't really show any qualities that devil girls need to have. Yet she's in Big D's mansion, the top of the (devil girl) ladder.
Her profession is making people sell their souls to her, yet those she's engaged with like her.
Just shared eye-contact with nique has them become huggy, cry-on-my-shoulder-buddies.

Those being said, she's a mild case at best, so I'm raising my shoulders at the comparison as well.

Here in my country there's a lot of social safety nets in case you lose your job. Unemployment paycheck after a while of unemployment, job centers... Also your boss has to keep you employed for about 3 months after they fire you, before you're actually let go. It's very disheartening to hear how the situation is for other countries when you take such things for granted.
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Kendra



Joined: 14 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timpie: "She's bumbling and incompetent, and doesn't really show any qualities that devil girls need to have. Yet she's in Big D's mansion, the top of the (devil girl) ladder. Her profession is making people sell their souls to her, yet those she's engaged with like her."
1. Yes, she is bumbling and incompetent, which I believe is why Big D likes her so much. She's viewed as a pretty little "thing" to him, an object, something that can be oogled and then tossed off to the side. She didn't make it to the top through her own merit, which is why I think she feels so out of place there.
2. I don't know if you have followed the relationship between her and Blue very closely, but Blue doesn't really like her all that much...the only person who has looked at her as if she is worth even a moment of time is 'Nique. Nobody else likes her, or regards her as someone who should be respected.
As far as I can tell, the standard Mary Sue qualities all seem to have a significant purpose in her character, which I believe disqualifies her from being labelled a Mary Sue. Mary Sue is another way of saying wish fulfillment, and I don't know about you, but I would personally hate to be in Absinthe's position. :/
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EDIT: OH WHOOPS, Miss M already pointed this out. Thanks, Miss M!
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timpie wrote:
She's bumbling and incompetent, and doesn't really show any qualities that devil girls need to have. Yet she's in Big D's mansion, the top of the (devil girl) ladder.


D-man chose Absinthe for presumably the same reasons he chose Blue and Fyoosh. And that's because he liked the way she moved her body. And D-man likes her as an employee because she does her job, she doesn't ask questions, she behaves, she obeys, she's a pretty little thing there to move her body for his pleasure.




Timpie wrote:
Her profession is making people sell their souls to her, yet those she's engaged with like her.


Although many of those who stop by the booth enjoy her presence, this is not for a random reason. This is because she is pleasant and kind to al who stop by the booth. But even so, although she is pleasant to all, and they appreciate that about her, none of them are really her friends. None of them really like her on a personal level, none of them really care about her. Not enough to get to know her. The only two characters she interacts with on a frequent basis are Nique and Blue. While Nique is obviously her friend, Blue does not like her in the least.

Timpie wrote:
Just shared eye-contact with nique has them become huggy, cry-on-my-shoulder-buddies.


But that's not really how it happened? They didn't become close, huggy friends until AFTER they'd talked and gotten to know each other a little? Although Tat would do well to flesh out their friendship and interactions a little more... it wasn't that instant of a friendship deal?

Samsally wrote:
EDIT: OH WHOOPS, Miss M already pointed this out. Thanks, Miss M!


!!! u3u !!! is cool, friend! You are welcome.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
referring to a character as a mary sue is a bullshit criticism of a character - not only because the term is kind of sexist - but because the definition of the term is incredibly subjective and it's meaning depends on the individual. two different people will have two totally different definitions of the word and it is not valid or stable criticism of a character's failing. to limit your opinion to just "the character is a mary sue" you are forfeiting your credibility as a critic. if you want to criticize a character or explain why you don't like them, there are so many better ways to do it.

"this character has too little flaws""this character does not have enough characterization""the character is bland""has no personality traits""is not balanced enough""the character has too much focus""the character overshadows the others" or "i am not fond of this or that trait in the character""i do not like the amount of focus on this character""i do not like the way other characters react to this character" and so on.

what about absinthe leads you to believe that she is a mary sue? and why? why simplify your argument by just casually referring to her as a mary sue instead of holding some sort of weight to your opinion?


Um wow, I didn't read that article before, but I just did now . . . I'll get back to that.



First, Absinthe is not a Mary Sue.



Now, back to Mary Sue. Before anyone says anything, let's look at the entirety of the terms origin:

Quote:
A TREKKIE'S TALE

By Paula Smith

"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her.
"Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?"
"Captain! I am not that kind of girl!"
"You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us."
Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?"
"The Captain told me to."
"Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind."

Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies , Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise.


Now look at the current usage:

Quote:
"Mary Sue" today has changed from its original meaning and now carries a generalized, although not universal, connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion. True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies" for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.



Do we see what happened here?

Anyone see the irony?

Mary Sue was a term used to refer to flat, unrealistic characters that destroyed stories in so many ways. She magically makes people behave in ways they wouldn't. She's supposed to be satire as in "here's how NOT to create fan fiction" and she works fine like that.

Superman is the biggest Mary Sue ever, along with most golden age comic heroes following behind.

But back to the irony, A term referring to lazily, poorly developed characters, was (wait for it) lazily and poorly applied to any character that was shown to lack depth or development.

From what I got from the article, it's not the term that bothers her, but the usage of the term against women. Fair enough. But I think many times, on both sides of the issue, those being misogynistic and those being offended, fail to realize is that "Mary Sue" is metonymic, and not metaphoric.

There's A LOT of people who use the term and they inspire me to invoke Inigo Montoya because now a lot of people hate, misuse, and worse of all, misunderstand what was once a useful short hand device.

And it makes me sad and angry.

So yeah, be pissed off that someone thinks Absinthe is a "Mary Sue", because she's obviously not. I'd say she's in many ways innocent, ignorant, and well-intentioned -- just perfect for the Devil's road crew.

But don't hate the term, hate those abusing the term, lest you become like that which you rally against.
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6330

PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty sure language evolves though, and a term that is misused to the point where nobody really knows the original meaning can safely be assumed to have evolved.

It's a shitty term and I hate what it represents. Even if you made it completely gender neutral, mostly all people use it for is being dicks to unskilled fanfic writers. I don't really see how it was all that useful in its original form.

And anyway, it seems a stretch to absolve it of gender bias, I don't buy that it hasn't consistantly been used against lady characters way more than the men since the beginning.
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