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2013-09-28: Strike 2
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Korladis



Joined: 22 Sep 2013
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Location: SF Bay Area

PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea that Absinthe is a "Mary Sue" is silly. She isn't a self-insert, and isn't a perfect, plot-breaking character that causes other characters to act in out of character ways (how could Nique hugging someone who needs some comfort possibly be interpreted as out of character for her?), and saying she's wish fulfillment is... a big stretch, at best.

As per usual on the internet, "she's a Mary Sue" seems to really mean "I don't like this character but don't want to actually justify my dislike, so I'm going to be lazy and use a hackneyed term that's lost all of what little meaning it originally had, but still expect this to be seen as a credible criticism."
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

both sides of this silly little argument already agreed that Absinthe was not a Mary Sue

and it seems unlikely that merest will come back to provide any sort of justification for saying that she is
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
and it seems unlikely that merest will come back to provide any sort of justification


When does he ever? His lofty commentary act would totally come crashing down if he would ever deign to actually engage or expand on his dribbled pearls.
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do not question merest!

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
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Korladis



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, after a while my eyes sort of glazed over because I'm too stupid to really understand the discussion about the term, so I just wanted to express my disagreement with Merest. Sad
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not think you are stupid. I think it's just a twisty-turny confuzzling discussion. It was very unclear where exactly the point of contention was.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it was
"`Mary Sue` has a useful meaning and you should hate those who abuse the term rather than the term itself" vs. "`Mary Sue` is a rubbish sexist put-down for a vague set of character traits and yaaarrr I hates it so much I hates everything it stands for, mmmyess, gollum"

I think
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Last edited by Heretical Rants on Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:17 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I hates it so much I hates everything it stands for, mmmyess, gollum


*we
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merest has befouled the precious with its nassssty little pejorative. Wicked, tricksy, false!
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It isn't fair, is it, precious, for Istancow to correct us on pronouns in the middle of our transition into gollum-speak. No. But Smeagol will be nice, yes, nicccee. Tired he is, but he yet makes nice posts on nice forumses for the Istancows. O yes, nice Istancows, clever Istancows, they always knows what's best
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Last edited by Heretical Rants on Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merest, you old Tomnoddy. All bigbody.
Old tomnoddy can't spy me.
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<3
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merest



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heavens, I check in to find a number of remarks about my innocent - dare I say Mary-Sue-ish? - use of the term 'Mary-Sue', as well as some daring comments about the unlikelihood of my supporting what I said.

Perhaps I used the term inaccurately. I understand that it originated in fan fiction circles, of which know only at third-hand. In my layman's understanding, a Mary-Sue is such an innocent, lovable, and faultless character that he or she is saccharine and potentially irritating. A glance at wikipedia suggests that the term also refers to a character standing in for the author himself. I had only referred to the first sense, for Absinthe hardly seems like Mr. Ishida!

As for support: Absinthe's wide eyes, her pig-tails, her naive and pathetic statements, her having to unnaturally think bad thoughts to make it through the thought-reading machine, all strike me as an attempt to make one sympathise with her virtuous cutesiness. Is she so different to Shirley Temple, who also had tragic back-stories tacked onto her characters? Although I find Absinthe shallow, others find her adorable. Why should there be any contradiction between the two responses? If you like Absinthe, I congratulate you on your good fortune, and hope that she continues to fill you with feelings.
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose that's fair enough, but I like her.

Attercop, attercop, down you drop, you'll never catch me up your tree!

I'm pretending you're a spider and I'm singing a rude song at you.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
It doesn't really matter how -you as an individual- perceive the term should be used. It's currently being used in a way that is super sexist and shitty. This conversation started with the term being used in a way that was sexist and shitty. Defending the term like it's supposed to be something else, when it's obvious that it is not being used that way any longer (and not just in this instance but as a collective trend across the intertubes), seems really counter productive in the long run.

Plus I just don't see how it was all that useful to begin with. In my experience it was just an easy way to insult other people's writing. There are loads better ways to provide helpful constructive criticism.


Well I consider within the last two years to be recent, and that's when I first learned of the term. It was introduced to me by a female teacher as part of a lesson which focused on brining your own creations into established works, such as working on a video game sequel, writing for an established TV series, working on a movie sequel, etc.

The story of Mary Sue was written specifically to be an abhorrent example of how not to add to an existing work. I see the story as not purposefully being insulting to anyone except those who think putting characters like Mary Sue into stories is a good thing. If it seems sexist it's only because the source work is, i.e. Star Trek IS sexist as fuck.

But I've also realized that I've been isolated from the misuse of the term, namely because I haven't and don't frequent the places it is misused, kinda like how It took me almost 10 minutes to figure out why sapphire could be derogatory to black women. And I haven't been really shown a better term to replace it's "classic", original form (the way I use it): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySueClassic

Also, for reference, this is the ENTIRE original story that gave rise to the term:


Quote:
A TREKKIE'S TALE

By Paula Smith

"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her.
"Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?"
"Captain! I am not that kind of girl!"
"You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us."
Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?"
"The Captain told me to."
"Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind."

Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies , Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise.

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