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2013-10-18 The Ringer
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

7h15, 2, 15 d3r9.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I read 1337, in my head it sounds like people warbling underwater.
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

13-Blublubblewub-37
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Varthonai



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So their immediate reaction to a stereotypically-effeminate being entering the WOS is "murder it with a chainsaw"?

Does this mean that the Women Only Space prohibits transwomen? Or merely that Xanthe has the ability to flawlessly distinguish cross-dressing cismen (/cisdrones?) from transwomen simply by looking at them and/or hearing them speak a couple of sentences?
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not as far as I can see. These robots are clearly recognizable as the same spybots that try to kill them or report on their activities to the Devil. Kind of like seeing a plainclothes policeman who tries to look the part but has no real idea how to blend in. There is no evidence that any stereotypically effeminate spybots actually exist - but if they did, they'd belong to the Devil too.

Besides, what these robots are doing is not the same as being stereotypical. It's more like when advertisements in the 90s started using 'girl power' language that had been used to express outrage and encourage change - but instead of that, the advertisers used the language to sell make-up and pink playsets.

Another similar thing is when grown old adults try too hard to seem hip and cool to kids, so they use slang. But they use the slang badly because they're not actually part of the community they are pretending to be part of. The kids can spot that and are really irritated about it, so the advertising flops.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, I would also like to see Tat deal with the issue of feminists and trans people, if only because I would like to know exactly where the Sisterhood stand. I don't think that'll happen anytime soon, I suspect because Tat already has a lot of characters, and I'm assuming probably doesn't know much if anything about trans people.
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tricksterson



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enh, I'll give the Sisterhood a pass on this until or unless they react negatively towards the Enlightened Drones.
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Varthonai



Joined: 19 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Not as far as I can see. These robots are clearly recognizable as the same spybots that try to kill them or report on their activities to the Devil. Kind of like seeing a plainclothes policeman who tries to look the part but has no real idea how to blend in. There is no evidence that any stereotypically effeminate spybots actually exist - but if they did, they'd belong to the Devil too.

Besides, what these robots are doing is not the same as being stereotypical. It's more like when advertisements in the 90s started using 'girl power' language that had been used to express outrage and encourage change - but instead of that, the advertisers used the language to sell make-up and pink playsets.

Another similar thing is when grown old adults try too hard to seem hip and cool to kids, so they use slang. But they use the slang badly because they're not actually part of the community they are pretending to be part of. The kids can spot that and are really irritated about it, so the advertising flops.


I'm not persuaded. I can buy that it's obvious the drones seem out of place, but that's not the real issue. The issue for me is that the drones actively identified themselves as female and the Sisterhood decided to ignore that, go "no, WE as REAL WOMEN have decided that you are NOT, and as punishment for pretending to be female in order to violate our women-only space, you will be executed".

They happen to be correct (we know that, as the omniscient audience), but who were they to make that judgment call? What evidence did they have upon which to base that decision? They didn't witness the drones actively agreeing with one another to adopt false identities. What if this is a new variety of spybot programmed to identify as female, albeit in an off-putting manner (not so different from the un-awakened fembots, really)? Sure, those would still belong to the Devil, but it's a women-only space, not a devil-free space. They clearly allow devil girls, and I think they've allowed fembots too although I can't remember that page.

Or y'know, hell, what if these drones were created to identify as male, but for whatever reason now genuinely identify as female? Why couldn't that happen?

Tat seems to be seriously suggesting that cismen cross-dressing and pretending to be women in order to violate women-only spaces is a serious concern for which WOSs need to be constantly on the alert, and I think that's kind of horrible. In most circles, cross-dressing and transvestitism on their own are already shamed as a major violation of the gender binary; if a biologically male person is willing to take that kind of a social risk, solely for the purpose of gaining acceptance in a female-exclusive area, then chances are pretty good that ey genuinely identifies as female and that you'd be an incredibly awful person to say "No, you're not a real woman, go away", let alone "I will now murder you with a chainsaw for daring to try and put one past us, you faker"!

It's especially pertinent because a lot of so-called women-only spaces really do operate with conscious transphobic policies and do really reject transwomen for precisely this reason, one of the more famous examples being the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.

TL;DR questioning someone's professed gender identity because of your preconceived notions of how a "real" person of that gender speaks or acts is a pretty mean thing to do imho, and murdering them for it is especially mean
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Istancow



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Enh, I'll give the Sisterhood a pass on this until or unless they react negatively towards the Enlightened Drones.


I second this.
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Miss Magenta



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Varthonai wrote:
TL;DR questioning someone's professed gender identity because of your preconceived notions of how a "real" person of that gender speaks or acts is a pretty mean thing to do imho, and murdering them for it is especially mean


although i totally see where youre coming from

they are spydrones. not human beings. they have no concept of gender. they are merely obedient toys. they are constantly trying to kill the girls. and they are in their space. they are not suddenly unrecognizable as being the very drones trying to kill them. the only drones that have consistent consciousness are the enlightened drones and the buttbot, otherwise they are merely hollow shells that are controlled by d-man. these drones only have sapience in strips that tat feel it would be funny for them to have sapience. but the drones that have not been tampered with by supernatural forces are remote-controlled devices that are to obey d-man's every command. they are not beings with their own thoughts or feelings.

your stance would be far more credible if it were someone or something that is a consistently conscious being, that definitely has a concept of gender and emotions. able to think for itself to some degree outside of the perimeters of rule of funny. a human, devil person, zombie being, angel, alien, perhaps even a fembot... those are all beings confirmed to have human emotions and are capable of forming their own thoughts without outside control. if they destroyed the buttbot or one of the enlightened drones, that would be murder. but if they destroy one of the anonymous remote-controlled drones constantly trying to kill them, its no different from breaking a camera.

i dont know. i definitely sympathize with the kinda cissexist rhetorics and ambiguity as to whether or not trans women are allowed in the zone and all, but... lol seriously fuck the spydrones

Istancow wrote:
Quote:
Enh, I'll give the Sisterhood a pass on this until or unless they react negatively towards the Enlightened Drones.


I second this.


feelin it
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may or may not be worth noting that Xanthe has encountered the ZenBots before, and didn't react negatively to them. As for these drones, I expect the Sisters' glasses had something to do with identifying them.

Quote:
The issue for me is that the drones actively identified themselves as female and the Sisterhood decided to ignore that, go "no, WE as REAL WOMEN have decided that you are NOT, and as punishment for pretending to be female in order to violate our women-only space, you will be executed".

They happen to be correct (we know that, as the omniscient audience), but who were they to make that judgment call? What evidence did they have upon which to base that decision?
The Sisters don't go to the Women Only Space to gab about hair and say "girl" in every sentence. They assume that someone self-identifying as female would know that's not what WOSs are for.

I hope you don't think we're ganging up on you, Varthonai; the points you raise are relevant and not to be dismissed. But I honestly think, in this case, your concerns are unfounded. Tat wouldn't put a WOS in his comic just to suddenly "out" the Sisterhood as transphobic.
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tricksterson



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:
It may or may not be worth noting that Xanthe has encountered the ZenBots before, and didn't react negatively to them.

Good to know Would you (or someone else if they will) mind finding that strip? I looked and couldn't find it.
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MerchManDan



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2012-04-27: Going Home

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Hydro



Joined: 21 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are the drones so freaking adorable? Now I want one for a pet. Or an action figure to put next to my turret.

I would be useless to the sisterhood.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Varthonai, if someone is normally well known for carrying a gun to specifically to shoot feminists, spies on feminists, and has demonstrated they are actively against feminism, should the Sisterhood welcome that person into a safe space?

I will also point out the spybots which talked to Curly. It used a stereotype about black women specifically to talk to her. What does that mean to you?

I get the issue you are talking about. I think that is evil shit when people do it. I rejoice when feminists are inclusive rather than backwards.
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