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2013-10-18 The Ringer
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Maynar



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 455
Location: Look into my eye...

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikewee777 wrote:
This is worse than that one time a lady walked into this hair salon with hair sopping wet from the rain. She sees the hair dresser alone with a hot blow-drier and says "Thank god you have one of those. I'm overdue for a blow job".

After realizing what she said: she froze, walked backwards and closed the door as she disappeared back into the rain which she came from.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-best-and-worst-punny-hair-salon-names


I'm reminded of one time an acquaintance related: he walked into a hair salon, sat down and asked for a "wash, cut and blowjob"

Then realized what he'd said. Shocked Forgiveness begs all around.

But being the strapping, handsome lad he was, one can only speculate what went through that nubile young hairdresser's mind. Wink
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The person that cuts my hair is a 60-something man who learned to cut hair in the US Navy. Just imagine your friend's interaction with those variables. Very Happy
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Maynar



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd rather not, actually.. o_0
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oho~
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Varthonai



Joined: 19 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:
As for these drones, I expect the Sisters' glasses had something to do with identifying them.


That would be a semi-acceptable retroactive Author's Saving Throw to use in future strips, but if that was Tat's intention here, then Panel 3 would be a POV panel as seen by Xanthe or Curly scanning them.

I say "semi"-acceptable because I think the idea of a plot device that flawlessly identifies someone's true gender identity opens up a whole nother can of worms entirely. Isn't that a breach of privacy, one that is arguably as bad or worse than what the drones do, looking into the very heart of a person's identity without eir consent? What would it show for genderfluid people? And why isn't the technology being employed (or at least sought-after) by D-Corp to assist in the targeting and oppression of non-binary people?

MerchManDan wrote:
I hope you don't think we're ganging up on you, Varthonai; the points you raise are relevant and not to be dismissed. But I honestly think, in this case, your concerns are unfounded. Tat wouldn't put a WOS in his comic just to suddenly "out" the Sisterhood as transphobic.


No, I don't think the intent was to "out" the Sisterhood, I think this was just Tat not realizing that some people might get very transphobic vibes from the use of the word "ringer" to describe a being that currently identifies as female but was assigned male at creation/birth. I am sure you are correct that Tat's desire is for his target audience to continue to view the Sisterhood sympathetically. But every time the Sisterhood reminds me that violence is their default solution to most problems, that gets a little harder. (Related: if they really care about keeping men out of the WOS, why don't they put up a fence or something? It seems to me that would improve security a LOT, with the only obvious cost being that Lil Sis would have fewer opportunities to beat people up. : /)

stripeypants wrote:
Varthonai, if someone is normally well known for carrying a gun to specifically to shoot feminists, spies on feminists, and has demonstrated they are actively against feminism, should the Sisterhood welcome that person into a safe space?


No, and I would probably extend that policy to anyone who fits those criteria for anything other than feminism too, since guns do not belong in a safe space.

But the drones are not someone. The drones are a group of someones. I think the generalization that a being that appears on their doorstep with the same shape of wings, the same triangular body, and the same cyclopean eyes, but which self-identifies as female and displays no violent tendencies, is automatically deserving of death, is incredibly dangerous, much more so than the alternative.

stripeypants wrote:
I will also point out the spybots which talked to Curly. It used a stereotype about black women specifically to talk to her. What does that mean to you?


It means the spybot displayed overt racism and should be called out, and maybe face some consequences beyond calling out. But I wouldn't have thought that those consequences could result in banishment from women-only spaces. As someone who has never been in a women-only space I don't know how much they usually tolerate.

Miss Magenta wrote:
although i totally see where youre coming from

they are spydrones. not human beings. they have no concept of gender. they are merely obedient toys. they are constantly trying to kill the girls. and they are in their space. they are not suddenly unrecognizable as being the very drones trying to kill them. the only drones that have consistent consciousness are the enlightened drones and the buttbot, otherwise they are merely hollow shells that are controlled by d-man. these drones only have sapience in strips that tat feel it would be funny for them to have sapience. but the drones that have not been tampered with by supernatural forces are remote-controlled devices that are to obey d-man's every command. they are not beings with their own thoughts or feelings.

your stance would be far more credible if it were someone or something that is a consistently conscious being, that definitely has a concept of gender and emotions. able to think for itself to some degree outside of the perimeters of rule of funny. a human, devil person, zombie being, angel, alien, perhaps even a fembot... those are all beings confirmed to have human emotions and are capable of forming their own thoughts without outside control. if they destroyed the buttbot or one of the enlightened drones, that would be murder. but if they destroy one of the anonymous remote-controlled drones constantly trying to kill them, its no different from breaking a camera.

i dont know. i definitely sympathize with the kinda cissexist rhetorics and ambiguity as to whether or not trans women are allowed in the zone and all, but... lol seriously fuck the spydrones


This thread's really getting to the point where I have to start bracing for impact every time I read "i totally see where you're coming from" or "the points you raise are relevant and not to be dismissed"

The thing is, it's not even really about the drones this time. I happen to think that the drones deserve to be judged as sapient beings, based on their actions as individuals and not based on their "species" or the fear of all the terrible things they might do in the uncertain future if the Sisterhood doesn't wipe them out first. But suppose that I were to agree with you for the sake of argument--agree that the non-zenzapped drones are all the same, that they have no autonomous personalities, that they are little more than remote cameras.

Now suppose that a properly zenzapped and enlightened drone, NOT one that is simply incognito, identified as female.

How would the Sisterhood tell the difference?

My issue is a little bit with the violence, but mostly, it's with the policies that permit (nay, encourage) the Sisterhood to engage in violence so indiscriminately. There was not enough going on here for them to make such a drastic call as capital punishment, not even close. If it had been a zenzapped drone in this comic, speaking the same lines to Xanthe and Curly, and Tat had made them react differently from how they did in this strip, it would have been out of character. So as far as I'm concerned it's only a matter of time. Tat will probably never allow it to happen because it would make the Sisterhood unsympathetic, but the bullet is still loaded and the safety is still off.

And on the off-chance that it does happen, I have this nagging feeling that there will be some minor detail that people will point at as an excuse for why we should still give Tat a pass, despite the resolution we made here to draw the line at hurting the enlightened drones. Because that seems to happen every time there's an issue with SinFest's efforts, or lack thereof, at intersectionality.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post, A+
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Moor



Joined: 07 May 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest, my first reaction to this strip was also "wait, was that just transphobic?". (my apologies, Varthonai, if I'm projecting and getting the wrong impression of your reaction)

I honestly felt like it was at least uncomfortably close, which was why I sort of looked awkwardly in the other direction after learning what "ringers" was. The joke in this comic (besides "<deadpan>I'm getting my chainsaw.</deadpan>") is "Ha, things trying to act feminine and overdoing stereotypes, aren't they funny!", which, yeah, is kinda uncomfortably close to "ha, men are trying to act feminine".

Right now, I don't think I see any evidence either way on the "skirting transphobic because of transphobia vs. because of he didn't think of it" front, so I'm choosing to assume that this was just Tat making a "things trying to act feminine" joke and just by ignorance failing to see any problems with that.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arguing about drone sapience is different than arguing that the Sisterhood are banishing these drones is a metaphor for their exclusion of trans women. That's what I was responding to, and I wanted it to be clear that I don't respect TERF. If you wanted to talk about the Sisterhood being generally violent, concentrating on that instead would have been helpful.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes harsh punishments (not violence and death of course but say bannings) are required to keep something a safe space. Yes, sometimes innocents get the brunt but it keeps the place safe for those who really need it and doesn't allow jerks to reign supreme who pretend they want to learn but actually just want to feel superior.

I'm convinced that internet areas like forums need to be ruled with an iron fist because anonimity makes one too easy an asshole.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Varthonai wrote:
MerchManDan wrote:
As for these drones, I expect the Sisters' glasses had something to do with identifying them.


That would be a semi-acceptable retroactive Author's Saving Throw to use in future strips, but if that was Tat's intention here, then Panel 3 would be a POV panel as seen by Xanthe or Curly scanning them.

I say "semi"-acceptable because I think the idea of a plot device that flawlessly identifies someone's true gender identity opens up a whole nother can of worms entirely. Isn't that a breach of privacy, one that is arguably as bad or worse than what the drones do, looking into the very heart of a person's identity without eir consent? What would it show for genderfluid people? And why isn't the technology being employed (or at least sought-after) by D-Corp to assist in the targeting and oppression of non-binary people?

MerchManDan wrote:
I hope you don't think we're ganging up on you, Varthonai; the points you raise are relevant and not to be dismissed. But I honestly think, in this case, your concerns are unfounded. Tat wouldn't put a WOS in his comic just to suddenly "out" the Sisterhood as transphobic.


No, I don't think the intent was to "out" the Sisterhood, I think this was just Tat not realizing that some people might get very transphobic vibes from the use of the word "ringer" to describe a being that currently identifies as female but was assigned male at creation/birth. I am sure you are correct that Tat's desire is for his target audience to continue to view the Sisterhood sympathetically. But every time the Sisterhood reminds me that violence is their default solution to most problems, that gets a little harder. (Related: if they really care about keeping men out of the WOS, why don't they put up a fence or something? It seems to me that would improve security a LOT, with the only obvious cost being that Lil Sis would have fewer opportunities to beat people up. : /)

stripeypants wrote:
Varthonai, if someone is normally well known for carrying a gun to specifically to shoot feminists, spies on feminists, and has demonstrated they are actively against feminism, should the Sisterhood welcome that person into a safe space?


No, and I would probably extend that policy to anyone who fits those criteria for anything other than feminism too, since guns do not belong in a safe space.

But the drones are not someone. The drones are a group of someones. I think the generalization that a being that appears on their doorstep with the same shape of wings, the same triangular body, and the same cyclopean eyes, but which self-identifies as female and displays no violent tendencies, is automatically deserving of death, is incredibly dangerous, much more so than the alternative.

stripeypants wrote:
I will also point out the spybots which talked to Curly. It used a stereotype about black women specifically to talk to her. What does that mean to you?


It means the spybot displayed overt racism and should be called out, and maybe face some consequences beyond calling out. But I wouldn't have thought that those consequences could result in banishment from women-only spaces. As someone who has never been in a women-only space I don't know how much they usually tolerate.

Miss Magenta wrote:
although i totally see where youre coming from

they are spydrones. not human beings. they have no concept of gender. they are merely obedient toys. they are constantly trying to kill the girls. and they are in their space. they are not suddenly unrecognizable as being the very drones trying to kill them. the only drones that have consistent consciousness are the enlightened drones and the buttbot, otherwise they are merely hollow shells that are controlled by d-man. these drones only have sapience in strips that tat feel it would be funny for them to have sapience. but the drones that have not been tampered with by supernatural forces are remote-controlled devices that are to obey d-man's every command. they are not beings with their own thoughts or feelings.

your stance would be far more credible if it were someone or something that is a consistently conscious being, that definitely has a concept of gender and emotions. able to think for itself to some degree outside of the perimeters of rule of funny. a human, devil person, zombie being, angel, alien, perhaps even a fembot... those are all beings confirmed to have human emotions and are capable of forming their own thoughts without outside control. if they destroyed the buttbot or one of the enlightened drones, that would be murder. but if they destroy one of the anonymous remote-controlled drones constantly trying to kill them, its no different from breaking a camera.

i dont know. i definitely sympathize with the kinda cissexist rhetorics and ambiguity as to whether or not trans women are allowed in the zone and all, but... lol seriously fuck the spydrones


This thread's really getting to the point where I have to start bracing for impact every time I read "i totally see where you're coming from" or "the points you raise are relevant and not to be dismissed"

The thing is, it's not even really about the drones this time. I happen to think that the drones deserve to be judged as sapient beings, based on their actions as individuals and not based on their "species" or the fear of all the terrible things they might do in the uncertain future if the Sisterhood doesn't wipe them out first. But suppose that I were to agree with you for the sake of argument--agree that the non-zenzapped drones are all the same, that they have no autonomous personalities, that they are little more than remote cameras.

Now suppose that a properly zenzapped and enlightened drone, NOT one that is simply incognito, identified as female.

How would the Sisterhood tell the difference?

My issue is a little bit with the violence, but mostly, it's with the policies that permit (nay, encourage) the Sisterhood to engage in violence so indiscriminately. There was not enough going on here for them to make such a drastic call as capital punishment, not even close. If it had been a zenzapped drone in this comic, speaking the same lines to Xanthe and Curly, and Tat had made them react differently from how they did in this strip, it would have been out of character. So as far as I'm concerned it's only a matter of time. Tat will probably never allow it to happen because it would make the Sisterhood unsympathetic, but the bullet is still loaded and the safety is still off.

And on the off-chance that it does happen, I have this nagging feeling that there will be some minor detail that people will point at as an excuse for why we should still give Tat a pass, despite the resolution we made here to draw the line at hurting the enlightened drones. Because that seems to happen every time there's an issue with SinFest's efforts, or lack thereof, at intersectionality.


This is concern trolling, and it operates from a fundamental, and in general I view as almost willful misunderstanding of the strip. These are not people for whom their physical body is different from the gender they were assigned at birth. The fact that they're essentially "dressing in drag" to infiltrate the women only space has little to do with their gender and a lot to do with the fact that the Devil who controls them and spies through their eyes wants to spy on the sisterhood, that's somewhat less of a "minor detail" and more of a "major plot point to the storyline".


But by all means keep wringing your hands and hoping that the fluffy bunny avatar will keep me from treating you like shit until you leave if you keep up the concern trolling.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post, A+
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Timpie



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
This is concern trolling, and it operates from a fundamental, and in general I view as almost willful misunderstanding of the strip. These are not people for whom their physical body is different from the gender they were assigned at birth. The fact that they're essentially "dressing in drag" to infiltrate the women only space has little to do with their gender and a lot to do with the fact that the Devil who controls them and spies through their eyes wants to spy on the sisterhood, that's somewhat less of a "minor detail" and more of a "major plot point to the storyline".


But by all means keep wringing your hands and hoping that the fluffy bunny avatar will keep me from treating you like shit until you leave if you keep up the concern trolling.

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Moor



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, though, the joke in this strip works without that. The joke is that the drones are trying to pretend they're women and acting in a very stereotypical manner.
For this strip, we don't need to know that the Devil controls them. For this strip, I think that is in fact a minor detail.

I'm not say that this strip is transphobic. I'm just saying that it did, in fact, make me uncomfortable.


And this is a minor point, but I definitely disagree that this is concern trolling. Concern trolling is when someone expresses concern about a different issue than the one at hand in order to derail the conversation. The issue at hand before this was how 1337 sounds like someone warbling underwater. There was nothing to derail it from.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moor wrote:
The thing is, though, the joke in this strip works without that. The joke is that the drones are trying to pretend they're women and acting in a very stereotypical manner.
For this strip, we don't need to know that the Devil controls them. For this strip, I think that is in fact a minor detail.

I'm not say that this strip is transphobic. I'm just saying that it did, in fact, make me uncomfortable.


And this is a minor point, but I definitely disagree that this is concern trolling. Concern trolling is when someone expresses concern about a different issue than the one at hand in order to derail the conversation. The issue at hand before this was how 1337 sounds like someone warbling underwater. There was nothing to derail it from.



Rolling Eyes

1. Tat hasn't actually introduced a transgender character. Several cross dressers but that's an entirely different beast from trans. Ergo commentary about intersectionality is pretty pointless.

2. There are 2 zenzapped drones...they'd tell the difference by the butterfly wings and the fact that they wouldn't be lurking around pretending (Badly) to be women and (badly) fishing for dirt.
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Moor



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

... That was ambiguous, wasn't it.

By "this strip", I meant "the four panels we're discussing". Not Sinfest in general.

And, um... could you rephrase the thing about the zenzapped drones? I didn't get that. (Unless it's not in response to me. I can't tell. Sorry...)
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