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2013-10-18 The Ringer
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3301

PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are 2 zenzapped drones

Those drones have butterfly wings, not bat wings, so would be pretty obvious in comparison.

They also don't behave like they're fishing for information in a manner consistent with being in a bad 80's comedy.
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Tekii



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Varthonai wrote:
No, I don't think the intent was to "out" the Sisterhood, I think this was just Tat not realizing that some people might get very transphobic vibes from the use of the word "ringer" to describe a being that currently identifies as female but was assigned male at creation/birth. I am sure you are correct that Tat's desire is for his target audience to continue to view the Sisterhood sympathetically. But every time the Sisterhood reminds me that violence is their default solution to most problems, that gets a little harder. (Related: if they really care about keeping men out of the WOS, why don't they put up a fence or something? It seems to me that would improve security a LOT, with the only obvious cost being that Lil Sis would have fewer opportunities to beat people up. : /)


The first panel has the spybots saying 'incognito mode' and 'infiltrate' as they enter a womens only space to spy on said women and talk in a stereotypical way women are often portrayed whilst giving themselves bigger eyes with eyelashes. Although I wouldn't be surprised if they had turned pink as well since so many people think 'female' versions of things should be pink or light purple. Big D' or Milton or whoever changed their programming to what they think women are like so that they could go and spy on said women in a women's safe place. The bots didn't decide on their own that they now identify as female and want to partake in the safety of that space, if they even identify as any gender in the first place.
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Moor



Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I meant what was the zenzapped drones thing in reply to.
I need to work on reading over what I say...
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Drowemos



Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Varthonai wrote:

This thread's really getting to the point where I have to start bracing for impact every time I read "i totally see where you're coming from" or "the points you raise are relevant and not to be dismissed"


That's because you are presenting a problem that they can't solve and they want to hear.
Given 1- woman safe space is something healing for a certain group of women.
Given 2 The creation of Women Safe Spaces requires that someone has to set themselves up as an authority on who is a women who is not. Otherwise the system falls
Given 3 -People forcing them to conform to a gender identity is a key bigotry that Trans individuals face.

Conclusion:
While we are sympathetic to your plight it would nice if you would not mention that you exist because we don't want to give up this really cool place they have.

I don't think Tat is bigoted or intended this to be about Trans individuals. If his trans-space comic has shown us anything it's that he just does not know a lot about the topic. The joke was supposed to be; "look at the evil Patriarchy trying to destroy our save spaces for evil evilness, because that is the only reason people would have a problem with this." The violence suggested is the cartoonist sort of violence. Imagine a classic situation of a guy harassing a lady and then she hit him with an oversize mallet. Same idea here.

Tat doesn't really have a problem with Trans individual he just doesn't think about them much. They exist outside the binary male/female philosophy presented in the comic. And frankly the struggles of Trans individuals are a difficult one to get your head around unless you are closely involved with it.

This comic bothered me but sort of the same way a The Mandarin from classic Ironman comics bothers me. Yes it's wrong but it not malicious and don't blame Tat for just not knowing better.

I am a little more bothered by people on this forum saying this is not a big deal, because this is a big deal. Willful ignorance is a lot less excusable than the run of the mill variety. This is a problem, you have been made aware of it, unintentional or not the concept should be decried not rationalized. The mealy mouth "we sympathize but... um... Hey look a distraction!" response is the real evil here, not the comic.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moor wrote:
I meant what was the zenzapped drones thing in reply to.
I need to work on reading over what I say...


Instead go re-read what i quoted.
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Moor



Joined: 07 May 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see anything in my post about the zenzapped drones or about telling the difference between the zenzapped and non-zenzapped drones.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

people - read panel 3 again.

i would be tempted to take a chainsaw to someone who said 'tee hee' to me.

but seriously: they aren't trans - they are doing an extremely bad impersonation of women because they have no clue about what women actually are. it's all about surface things with them, just gloss over a hollow core. one suspects that, if a trans individual did show up, they would show some sense of knowing who they really are, rather than coming across as pretending to be something they know nothing about.

and note that she did not, in fact, kill them, she announced she was getting her chainsaw. they have more than ample time to clear out.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moor wrote:
I don't see anything in my post about the zenzapped drones or about telling the difference between the zenzapped and non-zenzapped drones.


That's because I didn't quote you in that first post , asshat.
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Moor



Joined: 07 May 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh! Oh.
I'm sorry, then.
I misunderstood.


Mouse: Yeah, that does make sense.
I do wish a trans individual would show up, though.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have no indication of how these spybots identify, if they identify with any gender at all. We do have an indication that they are being duplicitous for the purpose of infiltrating the Sisterhood.

Scenario 1: There is a narrative that says that trans women are men who are trying to infiltrate feminist women-only spaces for the purposes of co-opting them, or just outright destroying them.

Scenario 2: There is also a problem where white knights, advertisers, and other interested parties try to co-opt or infiltrate women only spaces to exploit them for some kind of benefit. For example, religious people will try to co-opt the language and ideas of feminism to advance whatever they want (celibacy, monogamy, no abortions, no choices.) One of the best things I've ever seen to that end is in "The Handmaid's Tale;" the US has fallen to religious extremism, and some women are given the duty of training other women to be 'handmaids.' One of them mentions that once upon a time women had 'freedom of choice,' and now they had 'freedom from choice.' Women could either go where they want and be assaulted, or they can go where they are told and be put on a pedestal - at least till it is time to send them away for not fitting the proper mold.

Tat's spybots could be used to explore either of these scenarios.. Based on what I have read and the changes Tat has gone through in the past, I believe the second is much more likely. If the first scenario happens to be what Tat is portaying, then I will indeed be very pissed off. As it stands, however I don't see evidence that that is the case.

It is problematic that so often people are portrayed as cross-dressing for comedic effect or to deceive other people. Regardless of how well or poorly done this bit with the spybots is, it has added to the lexicon of beings cross-dressing to deceive. That is problematic.

One thing I did note awhile back is that, as far as I remember, some of the books that Xanthe has given away were gender essentialist and trans-exclusionary. That might not be accurate, but since there hasn't been anything said either way since then, I don't know.

I'd also like to know what Guy's point of view is on this issue, but I suspect learning anything more about him will be a very slow process.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also want to note that if this was how Tat portrayed transgender people, I would be really, really pissed at him. Because being trans is not about having eyelashes or talking about girl-approved topics or saying, "I'm a girl" every five minutes. That would be a disservice to trans women if Tat portrayed them this way.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think this is Tat's idea of trans people. The spybots are doing a very bad infiltration job and think they have to act like that to be seen as women. Considering the spybots come from the Devil corp who have little regard for anything in the first place, it makes sense they'd do something as bad as this. I personally think the spybots genderless until they give themselves a gender (and not one given by the one giving orders).
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since Tat doesn't introduce new characters too often, I think it would be best if he established that one of the currently-minor-ish members of the Sisterhood was a trans woman. Someone could be talking shit and then she'd lay down the education and Xanthe could back her up. I actually think it would be good if it were someone like Lil Sis doing the talking shit part, kinda like old school radfeminism, and then being corrected with the newer stuff. And then Lil Sis would be witness to non feminist characters being transphobic and chew them out for it.

And I'm still headcannoning Lil'E as genderqueer/agender no one can stop meeeee

Also I don't know why people think the bots would identify as male, same as Yinello I figured they would just be genderless. I can see how people could see this particular strip as problematic (I don't really like that word but eh) but I do think it's a bit of a stretch. If they were even slightly humanoid and doing this, I could see the problem. But they're freaking spy drones that have attacked people before, the joke is more so that they're doing a terrible job of infiltration based on stereotypes. To me it seems more like trying to infiltrate France as a spy by putting on a really bad accent, saying things like "I only like ze fanciest of ze cheeses and ze greatest of winez, oui, so French I am native French oui".
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
Since Tat doesn't introduce new characters too often, I think it would be best if he established that one of the currently-minor-ish members of the Sisterhood was a trans woman.


You know, before she explicitly stated that she was female, everyone was sort of debating whether Curly was a boy or a girl because of her rather gender neutral appearance... about that time I sort of grew fond of the idea of her being a trans woman... Although it's not exactly my headcanon, its just something I think would be pretty neat-o.
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Echo



Joined: 18 Jul 2013
Posts: 507

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
We have no indication of how these spybots identify, if they identify with any gender at all. We do have an indication that they are being duplicitous for the purpose of infiltrating the Sisterhood.


This is the main thing - *we* know that the drones are on an infiltration mission. The Sisterhood tend to have a knowledge of what's going on that's comparable to the reader, so I don't think we can read anything about trans issues in to their reaction. However, this has raised some other points worth mentioning...

stripeypants wrote:

It is problematic that so often people are portrayed as cross-dressing for comedic effect or to deceive other people. Regardless of how well or poorly done this bit with the spybots is, it has added to the lexicon of beings cross-dressing to deceive. That is problematic.


That's also just what some people choose to do. For example, Grayson Perry who I happened to be listening to earlier (a lecture on "What is Art?") is probably just as well known in the wider media for his cross-dressing as his pottery. Is what he does problematic for others? Should he stop, or be stopped, from expressing that side of himself?

I'm not pretending to have a good answer for that - or even that there is one. But once you start addressing questions of what the wider lexicon is and how it gets applied (or even mis-applied) to certain groups, you're kind of committed to treading on the toes of somebody else, if they tend to get lumped together in public perception.

The closest I've come to a general answer to the problem is "Stop assuming that what someone else does has any relevance to what I do", but that runs slap bang into the problem that modern media and journalism find broad-brush labels terribly convenient and aren't going to stop using them any time soon.

mouse wrote:
one suspects that, if a trans individual did show up, they would show some sense of knowing who they really are, rather than coming across as pretending to be something they know nothing about.


I dunno. Finding out who you are (trans, gay, cis, straight, whatever) can be more of an exploration than some deep-rooted certainty for some people. I think there needs to be some flexibility to allow that, and even to allow people to totally get things wrong while exploring who they are.
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