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2013-10-18 The Ringer
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, but at least they are _thinking_ about who/what they are. the drones aren't even thinking, they are just putting on an act, and one they haven't researched. like ennis' pseudo-French person.
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Echo



Joined: 18 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
one they haven't researched. like ennis' pseudo-French person.


I'm uneasy with the concept of research when it comes to exploring and expressing one's own identity. It smells of confining people to norms rather than free self-expression.

True, that does mean that in a practical sense, someone could cherry-pick all the worst stereotyped aspects of something they want to appear as, and come across as a complete caricature. They'll get some very strong reactions as a result, particularly hostile ones from anyone who feels that the caricature reflects on their own identity... but if it's honest self-expression, is it wrong?

I'm not sure it is. True, other people may find the result to be an offensive stereotype, or "problematic" or something, but the alternative is limiting someone else's self-expression just to protect your own feelings.

Like I said, I'm not sure there is a right answer on this one.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but the drones weren't examining their _own_ identities. and they certainly weren't expressing what they felt were their identities. they were pretending to have different identities. if you want to do a good job of pretending to be something else, you research that something else. actors do research for roles; people working undercover learn about the world they are trying to infiltrate and the people in it, so they will pass without notice.

the drones just took a few quick surface things.

and there is a right answer on this one. the drones were funny because they did a really shitty job of pretending to be girls, because they don't know the first thing about girls, and so they got caught.

i mean, seriously, people - do you really think a couple of devil-corp-built flying pyramids are putting a lot of thought into their sexual identities? and that they were infiltrating the girl zone in an attempt to further explore/understand their own sexuality? rather than, you know, spying? which is pretty much their whole reason for existence?
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

La souris est en dessous la table.

Le chat est sur la chaise.

ET LE SANGE EST SUR LA BRANCHE.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tout le monde veut devenir un Cat
Parce que un chat quand il est Cat
Retombe sur ses pattes

C'est vrai !
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The drones pretending to be women to mess with the Sisterhood reminds me a lot of cops pretending to be gay to entrap gay men in restrooms and bars. In that case, while a few cops might do it to explore their own sexuality, most did it out of homophobia or to do their job. And there were ways to tell that someone was an undercover cop rather than an actual part of the group, because of small and large differences in their behavior.

In that case, though, the gay people didn't have things to smash the undercover cops with. They just slunk away as quietly as they could and hoped not to be rounded up into paddywagons, exposed to all the world for being queer, and losing whatever they had left to lose. That's if they didn't get beaten, which they probably would.
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Moor



Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is not at all a comment on either your point, or the historical events you're talking about. I just read it and it made me think of this.

http://lgbtlaughs.tumblr.com/post/61839756871/indigostohelit-so-today-i-learned-that-in-the

... Okay, now I've killed all the serious. I'm sorry.


Response to the actual thing: I think I just wish that Sinfest would include someone not conforming to assigned gender that isn't a one-time joke/running gag. Having it be something more than a category of joke.
And this one really brought that up because to ones not conforming to assigned gender were specifically the Bad Guys and it was still a joke.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm feeling queerer than usual today!

Hm.

I don't even know what that meaaansssss
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Echo



Joined: 18 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, let's just separate the two factors here for a moment.

1. Motive. The drones' infiltration, the cops trying to entrap people, even the sailors (though that story is quite funny and I wish had more in the way of evidence) are all unacceptable. The intention with all is not self-expression, it's doing harm to the community they're trying to get close to. All wrong. This is the simple bit.

2. Behaviour. If we say that the drones are "doing a pretty shitty job of pretending to be girls", then that's a broad declaration not just against the drones' infiltration, but the way they're expressing themselves. We're essentially saying that there are Things Girls Do, and Things Girls Don't Do, and filing the drones' behaviour under the latter.

Which gets problematic when we start seeing these behaviours in people around us. Say we see someone irl doing something that the drones were doing. We've already filed that behaviour under Things Girls Don't Do. Does that mean that the person isn't a girl? Or is less of a girl? Do we reassess the behaviour and say this is a Thing That Some Girls Do?

That's where this gets difficult.

As for having non-gender-conforming characters, well, wasn't there a series of strips where 'Nique was getting hostile reactions, and seeing negative comments in the Matrix-view of the world, about her new look?
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're doing a shitty job pretending to be girls because they look like drones with eyelashes on them. Painting a security camera yellow doesn't mean people can't see something between the bananas is spying on them.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you really think that intentionally putting on an appearance to deceive people in order to harm them is analogous to being transgender, then that says quite a bit about your attitudes towards transgender people.

methinks this has all rather backfired.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No.

The motive is to do harm, and that colors how the behavior of the drones is interpreted. The drones are behaving in a deceptive way to infiltrate an enemy. They are not behaving in any way that represents how they actually feel, because they are spy robots. I and other people here are saying the robots are pretending to do gender because they are pretending to do gender - because they are spies whose two purposes are to kill and to destroy with lasers.

In a different context, let's say a murderous spy robot for a theocratic government tries to infiltrate an underground transgender support group. The murderous spy robot displays the obvious tell tale signs of being a spy robot which kills people and reports back to the theocratic government on the activities of the group. Believing that robots lack sentience or that destroying an enemy who is out to destroy you is justified, the group kills the spy robots. Because they are spy robots, not because they aren't trans. Unlike a normal actual person who may not behave like other trans people expect them to, the spy robots trying to join the group are trying to kill all the members and eradicate trans people from the earth.

In that case, even if the group doesn't kill the robots, the group has to do something to keep the robots from infiltrating them - because the trans support group would cease to exist if they ignore the signs that dangerous beings are trying to enter their safe space.



As for Nique, she was indeed getting negative reactions for dressing in an androgynous way, and she still does. She also enjoyed herself immensely while passing through the Trans State park. What does this mean for her gender identity? It means fuck all if Nique doesn't confirm how she identifies.
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Sassafras



Joined: 10 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that this is almost exactly what transphobes actually believe trans people are doing. The minority of radical feminists are happy to claim that trans women do not actually feel an innate female gender but are quite literally men doing bad woman impressions in order to gain access to women-only spaces for harrassment/rape. They're even willing to call trans women artificial constructs of doctors and the patriarchy. So it's difficult to interpret the drones as only the literal events of the strip because it is also exactly the sort of metaphor someone who is sympathetic to TERF propaganda would produce. It doesn't matter that the drones are not actually acting out of their true gender identity because transphobes don't believe actual trans people are either. And unfortunately the concern about the strip is legitimate because we can't be sure that the Sisterhood (and by extension Tat) isn't TERF unless they clarify.

(also hi)
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sassafras wrote:
The problem is that this is almost exactly what transphobes actually believe trans people are doing. The minority of radical feminists are happy to claim that trans women do not actually feel an innate female gender but are quite literally men doing bad woman impressions in order to gain access to women-only spaces for harrassment/rape. They're even willing to call trans women artificial constructs of doctors and the patriarchy. So it's difficult to interpret the drones as only the literal events of the strip because it is also exactly the sort of metaphor someone who is sympathetic to TERF propaganda would produce. It doesn't matter that the drones are not actually acting out of their true gender identity because transphobes don't believe actual trans people are either. And unfortunately the concern about the strip is legitimate because we can't be sure that the Sisterhood (and by extension Tat) isn't TERF unless they clarify.

(also hi)


If this is the kind of bad logic you're going to use here, you're gonna have a bad time.

"He hasn't proven he ISNT and there are some vague parallels ergo he is!"
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Sassafras



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:


If this is the kind of bad logic you're going to use here, you're gonna have a bad time.

"He hasn't proven he ISNT and there are some vague parallels ergo he is!"
Except that I didn't say he IS, I said that it was valid to be concerned that he MIGHT be, because the strip uses metaphor all the time and in this case looks an awful lot like a commonly-used metaphor that transphobes love. I honestly hope he isn't because I've loved the feminist turn the strip took and I don't want it to be TERF.
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