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2013-10-18 The Ringer
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahaha, yesss, I'm glad. I think I was sarcastic about that horrible movie with the singing tuba and the deeply inaccurate blonde Russians. It was a learning moment for me, lol.
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Samsally the GrayAce
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Varthonai wrote:

1. The Sisterhood's response to these drones, as presented in-universe, strikes me as in-character transphobia because it depends upon a premise that "real women" act in a certain way that is not only readily distinguishable from supposed "fake women", but is in fact SO readily distinguishable that it is safe to pair with capital punishment. That in and of itself is actually fine by me though. Acts of transphobia in-universe aren't necessarily being condoned by the narrative. The problem is that it leads into...


i think what you are missing here is that these are real drones, and cannot be mistaken for humans of any gender. the same real drones who have a history of actually shooting at xanthe and others. i suspect if they came in wearing ears and tails and pretending to be puppy dogs they would get the same reaction (including the 'ringers' comment) because they are still, clearly, drones, who spy on people and shoot at them, at the command of the devil.

in other words, i am just adding my voice to all the people who are saying that you are taking this way, way out of context, and sort of ginning up something to complain about.

that said, monkey has a point. if you really feel this is offensive to trans* people, email tat. nothing in the history of the cartoon suggests he is particularly familiar with trans* people; if you have some personal knowledge of the area, offer it to him.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Hahaha, yesss, I'm glad. I think I was sarcastic about that horrible movie with the singing tuba and the deeply inaccurate blonde Russians. It was a learning moment for me, lol.


But that was a beautiful movie, so full of truth. (Full of something, anyway.)
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ennis wrote:
Dogen wrote:
I've been googling so much about transsexual (found a neat research article on neuronal densities of transsexual people relating to the densities of the gender with which they identify), transgender, crossdressing... it's been an interesting weekend. Thanks, folks!

*side eyes that article* While fascinating, I'm not that thrilled with studies that try to find the "queer" or "trans" gene. It's not purely nature (or nurture), and I worry that these things will be abused by cis and trans people alike. What would happen if to get a diagnosis it would require that you have this particular neuron density because it "proves" that you're telling the truth? If nonbinaries want to transition, what do they do? What if a cis person randomly gets a brain scan and are told they have the neuron density of someone of the "opposite sex", do they have to transition? I guarantee no one would make them, and if they asserted they were their birth assigned gender no one would try to use some random brain scan to disagree with them. But assuming these sort of tests became the criteria for diagnosis instead of therapy or informed consent, it wouldn't matter how a trans person felt about their body or gender, if the test came back as "cis" then nope, you're mistaken.

I don't know. Generally, I'm always in favor of more knowledge rather than less. What we do with that knowledge is evidence of how good we are, how progressive, how understanding, but there's nothing inherently wrong with more information. Maybe there's more to gender than neuronal density in the limbic nucleus. Maybe there are 10 factors (be they biological, environmental, psychological, social, etc) that each influence how a person identifies, and the limbic nucleus is just one of them. I don't know. I don't mind finding out, though, because human behavior is interesting and worth knowing more about. I think of it - for me, as a curious person - in the same way I view positive psychology (the study of what makes people happy, resilient, and better off). So I'm curious about trans* because it's a part of human behavior and I find human behavior fascinating. I hope that doesn't sound condescending.

I'm also a white, 30-year-old, cis male (cismale? google was no help here), so I don't really understand the situation from any perspective but one of privilege, which is why I read these discussions. So thanks for being so open with me, I appreciate it.

Quote:
Basically, I hope you were reading things mostly by trans* people and not just studies done to try to boil it down to neurons or prenatal hormones or finger lengths by cis people.

I was reading mostly forums and blogs, one of which linked to the research article. While I am a scientist, I'm a social scientist, which means that I'm interested in both the hard data (when it exists) and the lived experience.

Quote:
TLDR: gender binary is bullshit, sex binary is wrong, society will shit on trans people and especially women at every opportunity and I don't trust scientists who are also a product of society to not let their research be swayed by ingrained beliefs about gender.

This makes me sad, but I understand the mistrust. Science has a history of royally screwing over one group while being appalled at how the previous generation treated another. Currently the sciences are catching up on gay rights. We (the newest generation) look back on the generation that treated homosexuality as a disorder with disdain, but that generation looked back on the generation that screwed over blacks with equal disdain while they were trying to "treat" being gay. So, I don't blame a person of any kind of minority status for mistrusting scientists. Scientists are just stupid, ignorant people like the rest of us.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the focus needs to be more on how everyone has gender, instead of, "These people are doing this very interesting weird thing over here." Because that's just one part of it, and no need to put one group under glass, far and away from everyone else.

Also, I'd love for there to be some kind of study other than just about transition or who has sex with trans people. Personally useful studies to me would be, "Does taking testosterone without having a hysterectomy increase the likelihood of cancer?" or "Should a trans person follow the weight guidelines of the gender they identify with when they are taking HRT?" And when gendered studies are conducted, like "Are women naturally bad at math?", I would like trans people to be included.

I occasionally get to take trans-related surveys from sciencey people, and it's always, "Who do you have sex with? Do they like having sex with you? Do they have sex with other trans people? How about women? How about men? Do the people you are having sex with consider themselves gay? Do they hate themselves? Do they do drugs?" Besides being annoying, these surveys get old after awhile, especially because they are never about things I care about.
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Drowemos



Joined: 28 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
1. I'd click that link to drowmemos' profile, and click the read all posts by author button before frothing about how "other people think so too"


Sorry to do a bit of necromancy on this thread but I really have been thinking about this. See I came here, not to cause problems, but to understanding a couple of things that perplexed me; "Male ally" just sounded off to me, why did their need to be such a term. And then women only spaces seemed unstable. Both concepts seemed to have innate flaws in them. I know next to nothing about Feminist theory so I figured there was some explanation I was not seeing.

So I came here to ask the forum, who believe in this stuff, to explain it. And then form flipped out. Called me names, accused me of some secret agenda and just in general where kind of horrible. So yeah I kind of formed an opinion that you were not nice people.

Granted that's probably not true but if your reaction to everyone who asks "what what?" is "Die foul troll!" you do give that impression. And granted I could have posed my question more gently but I really didn't know how sensitive the forum was at the time I posted.

Then this comic came up which was so unintentionally cruel and really hit upon one of the main question that I had about women only spaces; The basic problem of gender no being binary but a women only space a binary distinction. And I worried that the forums would start beating up on someone who said "wait there a problem here". Like it did.

It comes down to the quote "everyone a hero of their own story". I think you are misidentifying people who have legitimate concerns and questions as trolls. There is not much benefit to trolling this form. First of all it's a forum, trolling it is a bit old school with out the impact of taking the complaint to twitter, tubmlr, youtube or whatnot. Second the long delay in approval would take much of the joy out of trolling. And third every one who you've branded as a troll gave up pretty quickly (Myself excluded because I am just kind of dumb). That's not standard troll behavior the more you yell at them it should encourage them.

Now perhaps you don't come here for discussion but for celebration. And there is no problem with that. But in this case the comic was pretty unintentionally hurtful hitting on real world problems that exist between the Feminist and Trans communities. It's not trolling to point that out. No one is blaming Tat but at the same time he should be made aware that the comic was not cool when viewed from the Trans perspective.

As for writing an email to Tat, you'd get better responses back from Santa Clause and you know it.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Where the hell do you people live? I live in the city and we have these things called street lights and police. I see people (men, women, children) out at midnight all the time. We are not held up in homes with shotguns behind reinforced door as soon as the sun sets because that's when the rape mutants come out. Heck the streets are full of female joggers at midnight in my neighborhood (stupid yuppies).

Given that apr 78% of rapes are instigated by someone the victim knows I really don't get this. (Statistic from National Center for Victims of Crime). I guess I feel sad for you guys and whatever Mad Max world you live in. For me on this side of the Zombie Apocalypse we can walk the streets of most neighborhoods with impunity.

Rape is a horrible crime but it does not normally go down like a scene from a poorly written 1950's comic book.


That was actually your first post. Do you see where you went into a thread out of the blue and kind of came across as denigrating a womans concern about being raped?

You kind of go on in that thread for a while

but i mean basically your posts speak for themselves man, and anyone can go back, look at what you've posted and realize that this version you're peddling of your entry to the forum is pure fiction.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually now i want to know where Drowemus lives, where there are children wandering the streets after midnight. THOSE CHILDREN SHOULD BE HOME IN BED!

cradling their shotguns.
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Drowemos



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
actually now i want to know where Drowemus lives, where there are children wandering the streets after midnight. THOSE CHILDREN SHOULD BE HOME IN BED!

cradling their shotguns.


I know. The sheer insanity that people walk outside without arm escorts. Some of them don't even check the back seat of their car for rapists, morlock, chud and Freddy Kruger in the morning! The madness of it all.

To Monkey Mcdermott comment:

I did come here because I didn't understand. Because I wanted to learn your point of view. Granted I may have not conveyed it in the best way but that was the goal.

You don't believe that? Well I will say that does bother me on that basic human level of wanting to be heard and understood. But I realize that sometimes people are not in a place where they can hear and understand.

The comic is special to the member of the forum. It says something that you can't get anywhere else. I get that. The forum is primed to any question as an attack. I should have seen that an moderated my tone.

Although that would have been hard for me. The views expressed here are so far out there at times. So different from what I experience and from what most statistical data shows to be the case it's hard to keep my inner snarker at bay.

I guess the question "What you are saying seems absolutely batshit crazy, can you explain to me how you are not seriously mentally impaired," is never going to be well received. But you know that is a starting point. You can reach understanding from that beginning. But understanding is not why people are here. This forum is about celebration not contemplation. I get that now.

The only reason I popped in here was Transsexual issues are something that I do care about and I knew you guys were going to be kind of horrible when someone mentioning the comic was insensitive. Which you were. So I feel justified.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drowemos wrote:
mouse wrote:
actually now i want to know where Drowemus lives, where there are children wandering the streets after midnight. THOSE CHILDREN SHOULD BE HOME IN BED!

cradling their shotguns.


I know. The sheer insanity that people walk outside without arm escorts. Some of them don't even check the back seat of their car for rapists, morlock, chud and Freddy Kruger in the morning! The madness of it all.

To Monkey Mcdermott comment:

I did come here because I didn't understand. Because I wanted to learn your point of view. Granted I may have not conveyed it in the best way but that was the goal.

You don't believe that? Well I will say that does bother me on that basic human level of wanting to be heard and understood. But I realize that sometimes people are not in a place where they can hear and understand.

The comic is special to the member of the forum. It says something that you can't get anywhere else. I get that. The forum is primed to any question as an attack. I should have seen that an moderated my tone.

Although that would have been hard for me. The views expressed here are so far out there at times. So different from what I experience and from what most statistical data shows to be the case it's hard to keep my inner snarker at bay.

I guess the question "What you are saying seems absolutely batshit crazy, can you explain to me how you are not seriously mentally impaired," is never going to be well received. But you know that is a starting point. You can reach understanding from that beginning. But understanding is not why people are here. This forum is about celebration not contemplation. I get that now.

The only reason I popped in here was Transsexual issues are something that I do care about and I knew you guys were going to be kind of horrible when someone mentioning the comic was insensitive. Which you were. So I feel justified.


Literally all you guys have to do is introduce a logical chain of conclusions from seeing what is presented to coming to the conclusion that this is some TERF message. Because to those of us here, including a number of people who have identified as trans you havent. If you, or varthonai had provided any sort of historical backup to the idea that Tat would be peddling trans exclusionary feminism when Heretical rants asked for it that would be at least the starting point for a discussion about it. Y'all didn't because you can't, because he really hasn't touched on it.

If you REALLY REALLY want to make the claim, and have the best chance of forum goers not mocking or raging at you, theres a 200 page thread in the general forum here. Just be forewarned that the people in that forum are less likely to take the short route of swearing at you if you can't back your shit up, and more likely to bludgeon you to death with various sources and links proving you wrong. Pick your poison.
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Last edited by Monkey Mcdermott on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

derp buggy forum
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drowemos wrote:
mouse wrote:
actually now i want to know where Drowemus lives, where there are children wandering the streets after midnight. THOSE CHILDREN SHOULD BE HOME IN BED!

cradling their shotguns.


I know. The sheer insanity that people walk outside without arm escorts. Some of them don't even check the back seat of their car for rapists, morlock, chud and Freddy Kruger in the morning! The madness of it all.



i was wondering more about the people who let their kids stay up till all hours, but to each his own, i guess.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like that the forum has been viewed as way way way too politically correct up until just now. Or is that my imagination?


Seriously, though, I drop shows and stories and all kinds of things when transphobia shows up. It hurts me in a not symbolic way. It hurts the people I spend the majority of my time with. I have a keen interest in recognizing it and getting it out of my life. That also means I have great interest in avoiding false flags. So unless you show me some good evidence, I have to go with all the knowledge I have accrued up to this point.

A similar situation showed up for me recently about the Rocky Horror Picture Show. My roommate was complaining that it was transphobic. I told him that it was made by a trans person, and my roommate said that person must have been full of self-loathing. Since I had talked at length with another trans friend of mine who was all out and stuff in the queer community when the musical was going around and the film came out, I had some background knowledge on what Rocky Horror meant for trans people of the time, and what it meant for queer people in general.

My roommate wasn't interested in the historical perspective, or the reasons why things that are problematic to him are not a problem for other trans people. If I were not trans and I didn't know anything about the show or trans history, I would have gone with my roommate's idea until I heard something different that made sense to me.

I didn't avoid changing my opinion about Rocky Horror out of some attachment to it - because personally the story doesn't mean much to me, and because at least for awhile the local showing of it insisted everyone use the 'proper' restroom for their gender (Who the fuck does that, seriously?). The reason my opinion remained the same is that there was no evidence that warranted it changing.


I can't vouch for anyone else here, but this is my story, and this is why I am annoyed at the insinuation that those who don't believe this particular strip represents TERF must clearly be ignoring transphobia to enjoy a story by a problematic author. I, at the very least, am not.

I would love it if you could try and convince me, a HANDMAID TO THE PATRIARCHY, that this strip is an example of TERF - using something other than an appeal to emotion or a "more transphobia aware than thou" approach. Maybe it could be an early Yuletide gift.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Drowemos wrote:
mouse wrote:
actually now i want to know where Drowemus lives, where there are children wandering the streets after midnight. THOSE CHILDREN SHOULD BE HOME IN BED!

cradling their shotguns.


I know. The sheer insanity that people walk outside without arm escorts. Some of them don't even check the back seat of their car for rapists, morlock, chud and Freddy Kruger in the morning! The madness of it all.



i was wondering more about the people who let their kids stay up till all hours, but to each his own, i guess.


Some parents here let their children out late at night. The children howl as well, so we can only assume this is a family of werecoyotes.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

damn werecoyotes - they _especially_ should keep their kids in at night, so i don't have to worry about my cats. (altho maybe, per drowemos, i should just arm them. i'm sure that would work out well.)

also, hearing that you are a handmaiden of the patriarchy has me imagining all _sorts_ of thing about your wardrobe. which i should probably keep to myself.
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